Suspension of disbelief - Being dependent

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182494

Alla wrote:
> 
> I think we do see it with Ministry (sorry, I know I keep talking 
about it, but I just love how JKR did it, love). So, what do we see?
> 
> We see as early as GoF Malfoy already being buddy buddy with Fudge,
accordingly I think it is a very valid assumption that if Malfoy is
friends with Minister, he is not just friends with him, but with his
employees as well, some of them anyways. Check.
> 
> And with Umbridge, aren't they buddies as well? What I said before,
Voldemort making sure that one of the decent people who can be 
candidate for a minister's position is, well dead from his hand.
Check. <snip>

Carol responds:

I don't entirely disagree with you, but I'm not sure how Umbridge is
connected to killing off one of the decent people who could have been
a candidate for the Ministry (I assume--please correct me if I'm
wrong--that you're referring to Amelia Bones, not Dumbledore, though
Dumbledore's death was certainly a prerequisite to a full-WW takeover
as well).

I do want to mention, though, that Lucius Malfoy's attempts to
influence (or intimidate) everyone from the Board of Governors to
Fudge predate Voldemort's return. Yes, when we see him in OoP talking
to Fudge after Harry's hearing, he knows all too well that Voldemort
is back, having witnessed the duel with Harry in the graveyard. But in
GoF, when he and his family are Fudge's special guests in the top box
at the QWC, and when he's trying to get DD fired in CoS and Hagrid
fired in PoA, he's following his own agenda.

I do think, though, that LV had Ministry employees, including Rookwood
and possibly Macnair, acting as his spies and agents even in VW1. It
was all a matter of time. Once he killed off Dumbledore (and that
pesky Prophecy Boy, once he appeared to throw a wrench in the works),
he would have taken over the Ministry sixteen years earlier, much as
he did in DH, infiltrating it with his own followers; subverting those
like Umbridge who could be persuaded to go along with his agenda if it
meant that they could wield power of their own; Imperioing people like
Pius Thicknesse whom he could use as puppets; and killing off
important opponents like Mr. Crouch, Madam Bones, and Scrimgeour.

Certainly, he took advantage of Macnair's being a Ministry employee
already (did Fudge send him to talk to the giants, or was he only LV's
emissary?) and Malfoy's connections and Rookwood's knowledge of the
Ministry, but I don't think that was part of a longstanding plan. Nor
do I think that Lucius (or Umbridge's DE relative, Selwyn) informed
dear Dolores that LV was back, but they would certainly have informed
him that she could be brought to their side, no Imperius curse
necessary. (Draco may even have informed his father that she was ready
to Crucio Harry for information.) 

Anyway, I agree with you that the Ministry takeover was well-planned.
No doubt LV was planning a similar takeover from within of Hogwarts
and thought that he had mostly achieved it with the exclusion of
Muggle-borns and the appointment of two DEs as staff members (having
first killed the Muggle-loving charity Burbage), with the supposedly
loyal Snape as headmaster. (Too bad for LV, Snape was handing Harry
weapons!)

But if LV had continued to pursue a course like that laid out in "The
Dark Lord Ascending," without being sidetracked first by Harry and
then by the Elder Wand, and if Snape hadn't been helping Harry, if
think that LV would have won. He'd have won the Battle of Hogwarts
because Harry would not have destroyed even the locket Horcrux and
wouldn't know that he had to sacrifice himself. Nor would Harry have
dared to steal the cup Horcrux if he hadn't thought that he had the
means of destroying it (he wouldn't even have known about it if he
hadn't fortuitously used the name Voldemort and gotten himself and his
friends kidnapped by Greyback and the Snatchers (no, that's not a
Wizard Rock band; at least, I hope not!) Also, Voldie should have
continued to use Occlumency against Harry, just to make sure that he
had no access to Voldie's thoughts and plans.

Carol, who thinks that Voldie could have won, even with the Prophecy,
if he hadn't been his own worst enemy