Harry's DADA skill was Re: Albus and Gellert/Voldemort's Power

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 182627

Mike:
I'm coining a new acronym, because I'm going to use it alot in this 
post. YBSW = yeah, but so what?

> Carol responds:
> <snip>
> 
> Well, there's that Patronus, the one spell he's better at than
> Hermione, but he had lots of help and the advantage of training
> on a Boggart!Dementor.

Mike:
YBSW? Lupin told us that many qualified wizards can't cast a 
Patronus. Here's Harry casting an effective and probably powerful 
one at age 13. He repelled hundreds of Dementors with it in PoA.

To me it's akin to a French resistance fighter being trapped on the 
coast and his only way to save his life is to swim the English 
Channel. A very large motivation, saving one's life, causes him to 
attempt this feat. But still, *he swam the English Channel*, that's 
not something done every day.



> Carol responds:
> And all the spells he learned for the TWT, he learned with
> Hermione's help and because his life quite literally
> depended on his learning them. <snip>

Mike:
YBSW? Who doesn't have a teacher? Even Dumbledore attended Hogwarts 
and had teachers. Harry's learning curve, of necessity, has been 
accelerated. But he still had to learn the spells and become 
proficient at them in a very short time. And how much "teaching" does 
Hermione do, besides finding the spells in a spell book then stand 
back and say stuff like, "You have to concentrate."?


> Carol:
> but could he have turned himself into an animal, or even half of
> one, even at that age? there's no evidence that he could.

Mike:
For what purpose would Harry want to learn this magic? It was fun and 
games for his dad to become an Animagus. Maybe later in life, Harry 
would choose to master this transformation, but here and now it is of 
no value to him.


> Carol:
> Harry says himself, and I think that both his modesty and his
> honesty are important, that he has no power to match Voldemort's;
> his wand acted on its own.

Mike:
Well, seeing as only Dumbledore was shown to be a match for 
Voldemort, I don't see how Harry not measuring up to LV should be a 
black mark on his pedigree. As Pippin pointed out, Harry not only 
threw off Crouch!Moody's Imperious, he also threw off Voldemort's. 
And Harry was at an extreme disadvantage there in the graveyard, 
having already been injured by the Acromantula.

Harry got lucky in having LV's brother wand, but it wasn't luck that 
forced the golden beads back into LV's wand instead of his own. Was 
this magical ability, force of will, affinity with the Phoenix core? 
Whichever matters not to me, in this test Harry bested Voldemort.



> Carol:
> The only special powers that he has were transferred to him 
> inadvertently by Voldemort. He is matched against an enemy far
> more powerful than himself. <snip>

Mike:
YBSW? As Dumbledore proved himself, the key to defeating Voldemort 
wasn't to out-duel him. 



> Carol:
> 
> Harry does have the power to block the Imperius Curse, 
<snip>
> We aren't told, but, either way, I don't see how a natural 
> ability would be to his credit, any more than Hermione is 
> responsible for her own good memory and powers of concentration.

Mike:
This is a confusing statement. Why wouldn't Harry's, Hermione's, or 
anyone's natural abilities be to their credit? 

In GoF, Sirius brought up a different measuring stick (a measuring 
stick that we never see, btw) for guaging a wizard's magical 
ability; "powerfully magical". Barty Crouch was said to be so, yet 
he fell prey to fetal!Voldemort's Imperius. Harry repelled fully 
reconstituted Voldemort's Imperius. 

Why is this "powerfully magical" demonstration not to Harry's credit? 
After all, isn't Tom Riddle powerfully magical himself and isn't that 
why he is able to perform those fantastic spells? (Besides being 
bright enough to learn them and being a world-wise traveller that 
discovers them.)



> Carol:
> My intention is not to disparage Harry. 
<snip>
> he's really just an ordinary Wizard kid who happened, through no
> action or desire of his own, to become the Chosen One. What would
> have happened to Harry without the help of what Snape calls
> his "more talented friends," chiefly Hermione and Dumbledore, but
> also Snape himself (a "frienemy"?) and even Barty Jr., acting
> temporarily in the guise of a friend?

Mike:
YBSW? Besides Voldemort, who doesn't have friends that help them in 
this series? And Voldemort has better than friends, he has 
subservient DEs. Why should Harry's friendships be discounted as an 
unfair advantage? Or, put another way, why shouldn't Harry get credit 
for making these "more talented" friends rather than being looked 
upon as a weaker person for having them?
 


> Carol:
> <snip>
> 
> For example, Hermione talks Harry into giving them all DADA
> lessons, yet she's the one who helped him learn all those spells.

Mike:
YBSW? Hermione may have helped Harry learn them, but there was no 
indication that she mastered them herself, nor that she was as good 
at them as Harry was. If there is more to magic than pointing a wand 
and repeating an incantation, Harry must have figured out how to tap 
into that something extra. That's what he teaches, imo.



> Carol:
> Why does Hermione,... need DADA lessons? She knows perfectly well
> that Harry didn't defeat Voldemort in GoF, the Priori Incantatem
> did. 

Mike:
I beg to differ. First, Hermione needs/wants to master DADA spells in 
the way that Harry has. That's why she needs lessons. Second, the 
Priori Incantatum neutralized Voldemort's AK, but Harry's force of 
will is what made him come out on top in the battle to decide which 
wand would be forced to regurgitate its spells. That is what decides 
who defeated whom in this encounter and it was Harry's doing and 
Harry's victory, imo.


> Carol responds:
> <snip>  He lets Hermione write many of his essays for him, which
> is why I wonder how he managed to learn the theoretical portions
> of his various subjects at all.

Mike:
I don't think Hermione wrote *one* of Harry's essays. She certainly 
proofread them and corrected his mistakes, but her own moral compass 
won't allow her to flat out write them. And Harry demonstrated that 
he must have grasped at least some of the theoretical qualities of 
magic in order to get the grades and perform the spells that he does.
QED



> Carol:
> Under ordinary circumstances, .... but would he have learned DADA
> the way he did under special circumstances?

Mike:
Paraphrasing here, but didn't Dumbledore say that he never dreamed he 
would have such a person of Harry's quality? Dumbledore's fan-like 
utterance bespeaks of Harry's talents and abilities, not because he 
was the "chosen one" but in spite of that. IOW, I think Harry was 
naturally inclined towards DADA and naturally talented separate from 
whatever talents he got from LV's soul piece. YMMV



> Carol responds:
> But with each passing year, he becomes more accustomed to that 
> world, and it loses its newness and excitement. He also becomes
> more preoccupied (as is perfectly natural and normal) with the
> things that interest him, such as Quidditch or whatever mystery
> he and his friends are solving or whatever problems he happens
> to be facing. And, of course, those problems all too often relate
> in some way to Voldemort, which takes us back to DADA.

Mike:
As you say, perfectly natural, and part of what keeps Harry as the 
everykid he was introduced as. 



> Carol, who prefers a Harry who is not a miniature Dumbledore
> capable of casting spells like those that DD and LV (or Snape
> and McGonagall) cast against each other and is instead forced
> to rely on luck, resourcefulness, courage, and friendship to
> defeat his nemesis

Mike, agreeing with Carol's general assessment but wanting to claim
a smidgen more talent for Harry than she's willing to allow