James and Sirius - "Coolness"

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 182663

> > Barry wrote:
> > So it depends on what JKR means by 'cool'. 
> 
> Carol responded:
> 
> <snip> 
> I wanted to focus on your comment
> about what JKR thinks is "cool."
> <snip>
> 
> What does JKR think is "cool"?
> Lupin, IIRC, says that [Sirius] and James were "the height of
> cool." I don't want to second-guess JKR, but if Lupin is right,
> if most of the students (except, probably, the Slytherins)
> regarded a pair of "arrogant little berks" as "cool," their
> judgment is (IMO) sadly lacking. (I know that Mike disagrees
> with me; possibly JKR does as well.) <snip>

Mike:
You're right on at least one count, I disagree with you about James 
and Sirius. 

But I don't know about JKR, I don't think she wanted *us* to think 
James and Sirius were "cool". I think she did her best (mostly in 
SWM) to demonstrate that the Marauders were arrogant and that at 
least James and Sirius were bullies. And I don't think JKR likes 
bullies. I think JKR tried valiantly, though not always successfully, 
to paint Draco as a bully so we would not like him, either. I say not 
successfully because there were a LOT of Draco fans amongst her 
readership, as there were many (including me) Marauder fans.

If you don't want to, I'll second-guess JKR on this subject. Sure 
these guys are arrogant, arrogance is integral to coolness, imo. One 
won't be "the height of cool" unless one is at least slightly 
arrogant. 

People like to point to the detentions and the hexing in the hallways 
as defining their characters. Well, hexing in the hallways is what 
wizarding kids do. It's not permanent, it's just their form of 
slapstick humor. Look at the condition of Draco and company after the 
DA responds on the Hogwarts Express at the end of OotP. If these were 
normal humans with normal methods of fighting, we'd see Draco's 
condition as worse than death. Yet he's back and fine at the start of 
HBP. Hexing in the hallways is fun and games for wizard kids.

I look at Lily's recriminations in SWM in a new light after DH. She's 
coming to the defense of her friend, she's throwing everything at 
James that she can think of. "... hexing who annoys you just because 
you can ..." <SWM, OotP> Well, Lily dear, *anyone can* hex others, 
you're wizards and witches. And it happens all the time and continues 
to happen in Harry's time at Hogwarts. Also, you don't hex your 
friends, you hex those that "annoy" you - what's so abominable about 
that? I think Lily's upset because this time it's her pal Snivellus. 
But mostly I discount Lily's strictures because she ended up marrying 
this "arrogant toerag" only a few short years later. How much did she 
believe these recriminations and how much of it was her lashing out 
at the guy that was picking on her friend?

Does arrogance define them? I don't think so, I think their talents 
define them. The fact that they could become Animagi at such a young 
age and hide it right under the crooked nose of Albus Dumbledore 
(read: they did it on their own) when it's supposed to be a dangerous 
transformation if done wrong, speaks to their talents. Their talents 
must be apparent to all the other young wizards. They are above 
average, maybe way above average, in the one thing that other witches 
and wizards on a whole look up to; magical abilities. That, above all 
else, is what makes them "cool".

So they go gallivanting with a werewolf. Was it dangerous? Sure it 
was, but not so much that they couldn't handle it. I know that 
because they did, despite the close calls. The wimpy Lupin, the only 
non-Animagus, chastises himself and by extension all of the Marauders 
for their arrogance. Yet he admits that it wasn't *so* dangerous that 
they didn't go out and do it again. 

Besides, there is one thing that nobody has explained to me that 
would make me re-evaluate my position on the Marauder's marauding 
with a werewolf: What about all the other werewolves? They aren't 
bound up or confined like Lupin was in his Hogwarts days. In fact, 
the adult Lupin is sent out to spy on them by Dumbledore. What does 
the WW as a whole do about these other werewolves. Are there 
precautions taken? Don't they know to take these precautions during 
the full moon? How exactly is Lupin's condition different from all 
the other werewolves that cause him to have to be locked up? Sure, he 
can't be allowed to transform in the dorm. But why does he have to be 
locked up in the Shack when we never hear of any other werewolves 
having to be locked up on full moon nights?


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/182660

Potioncat:
In fact, for the most part, the wizarding students who do appear
extraordinary don't end up well. (Tom, Gellert, young Crouch)
(Perhaps Snape) DD is the only one who does. I'm not sure where to
put James and Sirius. James's days were numbered when Harry was
concieved. Sirius's recklessness destroyed his potential.

Mike:
Yippee, I get to disagree with JKR again. Well maybe it's just Harry. 
I think JKR wanted to paint Sirius as reckless, but I'm not buying 
it. I call it more controlled mayhem. As I've outlined above, I think 
the marauding with the werewolf was good wizarding fun. If that was 
supposed to be a mark in the reckless column, didn't work for me.

Was his going after Peter reckless? C'mon, who wouldn't go after the 
ratboy, erstwhile friend after he sold your best friend and wife out 
to their deaths? Sirius *was* more talented than Peter, he could 
defeat him and Peter knew it. Peter didn't fight Sirius, he 
perpetrated a ruse and ran. Maybe quicker thinking than Sirius 
thought him capable, but certainly not an indication that Sirius' 
action in going after Peter was reckless.

I can't possibly conceive of how Sirius going to the MoM to help 
Harry (in OotP) was reckless, no matter what Snape said. In what way 
was Sirius being reckless and the rest of the Order wasn't? Or were 
they all reckless, in which case someone will have to explain to me 
that reasoning? Standing on the Dias in front of the Veil maybe was 
reckless. Or maybe the course of the battle took him there and he 
didn't even realize where he was. That's the way I read it. YMMV. 
Laughing at Bellatrix, his last living act, could be perceived as 
reckless, I'll grant that one. In my mind, I saw Sirius being carried 
away with the adrenaline rush (or whatever wizards get), and getting 
overly exuberant for the situation. He's actually enjoying this 
fighting.

So that's another thing I disagree with JKR on. Or do I? I like the 
Marauders, so I am biased. But I don't find them to be egregiously 
bullying nor overly arrogant nor, in the case of Sirius, ridiculously 
reckless. But maybe JKR only painted the picture and is allowing me 
to interpret it in anyway I like.



Mike, who will continue to defend his Marauder buddies, cuz JKR has 
allowed me to think of them as real people by transporting me 
successfully into the Potterverse.