Harry's DADA skill was Re: Albus and Gellert/Voldemort's Power

[Beatrice23]

No: HPFGUIDX 182664

Potioncat:
Harry is not an extraordinary wizard, though he does manage to
achieve extraordinary things. What Harry has in great abundance is
determination and courage. He also has 2 good friends and a bit of
luck.

Harry says it. Snape says it. Harry sounds modest when he says it,
Snape sounds disparaging--but the words are true.

In fact, for the most part, the wizarding students who do appear
extraordinary don't end up well. (Tom, Gellert, young Crouch)
(Perhaps Snape) DD is the only one who does. I'm not sure where to
put James and Sirius. James's days were numbered when Harry was
concieved. Sirius's recklessness destroyed his potential.

I'll bet that every kid who read HP thought Harry was just like
him/her. (bright or not) And I'll bet every kid hoped that if danger
came, they too would meet the challenge head on.

Beatrice responds:  Excellent!  Yes, I agree.  But I think that 
again, this doesn't quite take into account the importance of Love, 
friendship, and Harry's sacrifice.  These three things are what makes 
Harry extraordinary.  There was a study not too long ago about child 
prodigies which indicated that children who are considered "average" 
or just slightly above actually achieve more later in life than those 
who are considered exceptional early.  Although Harry is thought 
exceptional early on, his academic performance is average, except for 
a few notable and already much noted exceptions.  What I am trying to 
argue is that everyone (except perhaps DD), including Harry 
underestimates the power of the three talents that are uniquely his 
love, friendship, and selflessness.  okay so some would argue that 
the love comes from his mother, but it is Harry that keeps it alive 
in himself against impossible odds.  It is Harry who gives it freely 
and at moments where others would not dare to.  
> > 
> Beatrice responded: 
> 1st: Fear of a fake Dementor?  It seemed to me that even the boggart
> was able to produce the same effect as a real dementor as evidenced 
by
> Harry's experience in Lupin's office - he hears his mother's death,
> passes out and has to be revived with chocolate. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> Which is exactly my point. Harry's Boggart, shared by no other 
person
> we know of, allows him to practice (safely) on a highly effective
> substitute Dementor. No one else has that advantage. All they can do
> is cast learn to cast a Patronus in the RoR, where it's easy to find
> and concentrate on a happy memory. It's another matter altogether 
when
> a Dementor (whether real or a highly realistic Boggart substitute) 
is
> sucking out the very happiness that's required to conjure the
> Patronus. The Boggart, scary as it is, can't *really* suck out his
> happiness, much less his soul, any more than Boggart!Snape can 
really
> take points from Neville or a Boggart mummy can really do whatever
> mummies do. 

Beatrice:  Not to quibble over such a small point, but I agree that 
the fake Dementor probably cannot suck out Harry's soul - but it does 
an excellent job of sucking out Harry's happiness...so I don't think 
that you point really holds up here.  As for what you are maintaining 
here and at several other points in your argument that Harry has the 
advantage of private lessons that no one else does.  I have to 
disagree with you here. 

> Carol responds:
> Does any student other than Harry actually receive private lessons? 
(I
> suppose we could count Snape's putting Crabbe and Goyle in 
detention,
> ostensibly to help them pass their DADA OWLs this time around, but I
> can't recall any other examples.) And sure, Karkaroff and Madame
> Maxime did a fair bit of cheating (erm, pardon the word "fair"!) to
> help their students in the TWT, but no other Hogwarts student 
receives
> help resembling what Harry receives from Lupin. Harry could not have
> won the TWT without help from Fake!Moody, Death Eater or no. But 
maybe
> that's not what you're talking about here. I can't tell.
> 
> 
> Beatrice:
> > Okay - but they master it under Harry's instruction, with NO
> dementor or even a fake Dementor present (which makes it much less
> impressive) AND in DH they face the Dementors together - not own 
their
> own.  And not with Harry's past which Lupin tells us in PoA is why 
he
> reacts so strongly to the dementors. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> They learn how to cast a corporeal Patronus, but they don't 
experience
> the fear that Harry feels when he's learning to cast one. *They* 
don't
> relive their worst experiences (or require chocolate :-) ); they're
> just learning a cool new spell. Seamus, Neville, and Luna don't face
> real Dementors until DH, when most of them are in seventh year (Luna
> is in sixth), and even Hermione, now eighteen years old and a highly
> gifted witch, can't sustain her Patronus. Harry, with the advantage 
of
> special training involving a Boggart Dementor, and the dubious
> advantage of having faced a hundred Dementors and then saved himself
> by casting one from a distance, and the dubious advantage of having
> faced two more Dementors in OoP, can (usually) sustain a Patronus.


Beatrice:  Which is exactly my point.  That casting a patronus is one 
thing - but casting it in the presence of a dementor is quite 
extraordinary.  Even Hermione who is known for trying difficult 
spells says to Harry in their third year that casting a true corporal 
Patronus is "very advanced" magic.  Don't forget that it isn't until  
TWO years later that the others even attempt this bit of magic.  
Hermione, who seems to try a lot of things on her own, either doesn't 
appear to try it or isn't able to master it until Harry's lessons.   

But let's get back to one of your important points, that no one, but 
Harry gets extra help.  I know that this will start a riot on this 
board because I am going to point out a couple of things that aren't 
explicitly stated in the canon, but I think that your argument fails 
to consider that others do get help and the many  useful forms that 
that help can come in that Harry is not privileged to receive.  

First, let's think about the advantage that students have coming from 
a wizarding family.  Okay, Ron says that really they don't have that 
much of an advantage over muggle borns, but even if they are not 
taught magic they get to see it performed on a daily basis by 
qualified, of age magicians.  Even the Weasley twins who are seen to 
have spectacular magical skills particularly in their joke products, 
have each other to work with, practice on, and can use each other's 
strengths to benefit them as a whole (I also think that it is 
important to note that the twins have mediocre to poor academic 
performances.  This exposure might prove very useful especially when 
it comes to learning wand movements and incantations.

But what about muggle borns?  Aren't they at the same disadvantage as 
Harry?  Look at what Hermione accomplishes.   I doubt that anyone 
would argue that Hermione is anything but exceptional, but I also 
doubt that any muggle born has Harry's distinct disadvantage at 
home.  While it is true that no one is allowed to practice magic 
outside school, Harry is probably the only or at least in a very 
small minority of students who is denied the right to study over the 
summer months (see the opening chapters of PoA).  He does manage, but 
under pretty extreme circumstances: picking a locked door, without 
magic; sneaking his books upstairs; working only in the dead of night 
when everyone is sleeping; and hiding all evidence of his studies.

Which brings us back to Carol's point that no one gets private study 
with a professor.  It is probably safe to say that no one has 
dementor lessons, although Lupin probably would help anyone who asks, 
because that is the kind of person he is, and that no one gets 
occlumency lessons from Snape - although we DO know that Malfoy gets 
them from Bellatrix, which seems to be a distinct advantage over the 
lessons that Harry gets as Harry has to take lessons from a sadist 
who Harry hates and who hates him and a great set up for Harry to be 
able to focus and control his emotions.  It probably isn't difficult 
to imagine that wizard parents and relatives would probably give 
their children lessons in the summer – if not practical ones then 
certainly showing them certain techniques that are in line with the 
parents's own interests and talents (eg.  Luna's expedition with her 
father to find crumple horned snorkacks.)  

So, Malfoy is only one case, but we do have evidence that other 
people have received special instruction and suggestions that some 
other people might have also.  We know for a fact that Lavender and 
Pavarti frequent Prof. Trelawney's office (okay so she is a batty, 
fraud) but it is probably safe to say that they discuss more than 
just daffodils and tea cozies.  Charlie is now working with dragons 
and has a special gift with magical creatures and we know that he 
frequented Hagrid's hut (GoF).  Neville has an aptitude for Herbology 
and appears to work with Prof. Sprout outside of class (there is a 
reference to this - I can't think of it off the top of my head).  
Neville even spends time with the fake Moody having tea.  Hermione 
seems to have several ex par tee conversations with a variety of 
professors.  We even know that several students have paid visits to 
Dumbledore's office, although I admit probably for disciplinary 
issues rather than "lessons."  

So Harry gets some extra help.  He also has a lot more riding on his 
shoulders then almost anyone else.  I'm not arguing that Harry is the 
greatest wizard of his age or that his talents are vastly superior 
than most other wizards.  What I am saying is that he accomplishes a 
lot and he deserves credit for it (not Lupin, Dumbledore, James, 
Hermione, etc.)  In the end Harry is the one who faces LV.  He faces 
him repeatedly alone and ultimately wins despite all of 
LV's "extraordinary" talent.

Beatrice, who isn't arguing that Harry be canonized, just allowed to 
take credit for his accomplishments no matter how "mediocre" his 
academic performance.