ChapDisc: DH 18, The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

[nikkalmati]

No: HPFGUIDX 182683

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Nikkalmati wrote:
> > 
> > >The problem I am struggling with here is that Albus appears to be
> willing to sacrifice other people for the good of the many.  This is
> part of Aberforth's problem with his brother.  He is asking Harry if
> he really knows what he is getting into.  Of course, he doesn't -
> Albus never told him.  Albus knew Harry would be willling to go
> forward at any cost, but was that fair?  Albus' MO is to trap you 
into
> a committment and then shame you into going on when you finally see
> the handwriting on the wall.  Not my idea of the highest moral 
standard.  
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> 
> With regard to Albus Dumbledore, it's true that he conceals
> information from Harry, but it's unclear whether he really intends 
to
> sacrifice him. Harry has to *think* that he's going to his death and
> willingly sacrifice himself as his mother sacrificed herself for him
> (but with a little more dignity and forethought), but Dumbledore 
knows
> that Harry has a good chance of surviving. (He can't know that, or 
the
> intent to sacrifice himself won't work.) In HBP, DD tells Harry that
> he doesn't have to act on the Prophecy. It doesn't have to fulfill
> itself unless he and Voldemort choose to face each other. And they
> make that choice, LV because he wants to end the threat of the 
Chosen
> One and Harry because, even if it means his own death, he wants
> Voldemort permanently destroyed to pervent him from ruining any more
> lives.
> snip big snip
> Yes, he was secretive. Yes, he was manipulative and controlling and
> had a greater faith in his intellect and his plans than was perhaps
> justified. But, IMO, he, not Aberforth, was right that sometimes the
> individual must risk or even sacrifice his own life for the benefit 
of
> others, whether it's a mother dying to save her child or a
> seventeen-year-old boy facing an enemy only he can destroy. 
> 
> Carol, who thinks that the greater good motif is crucial to our
> understanding of DH but suspects that it's one of those topics on
> which our opinions wil remain divided
>
Nikkalmati

   My originnal question was whether JKR saw the dichotomy between 
the story she wrote and the story she thinks she wrote.  MHO, of 
course.  Your response describes the story as she intended the reader 
to see it, based on her own comments and apparent intent.

  I see another and much more morally complex story in which DD is 
far from "the epitomy of goodness" JKH once called him. (Does she 
really believe that?) His behavior is morally ambiguous at best and a 
good example of why one cannot leave it to one person to decide what 
is "the greater good".  Arn't there some things one should never do 
even if one beleives good would result?  

   DD refused to trust Harry to make the right decision and withheld 
vital information about the scar from Harry, so that by the time 
Harry knew the truth it would be too late for someone of Harry's 
disposition to back out.  DD did not believe in the prophecy, so the 
only reason to encourage Harry to face LV, was so that LV would kill 
him and get rid of the soul bit in Harry.  There was no reason some 
other plan could not have been devised to get rid of the Horcruxes 
and kill LV, except that someone had to kill Harry.  Snape in his 
memory says "you used me" and that is exactly true.  I am not sure 
why Snape didn't walk out at that point, unless he just had such a 
hatred of LV that he was willing to remain in his position regardless 
of DD's revelation that Harry had to die. 

   DD did not trust himself to become Minister of Magic and I think 
he was correct in his self-evaluation.  Note when he came upon the 
ring, he put it on, tempted by the desire to raise the dead.  Even 
after 130 years of adulthood he has not learned to resist temptation. 
Also note that Aberforth, although he argued for self-interest to 
Harry, came through in the end and did a great deal to help the Order 
and defeat LV. Maybe Aberforth was right.  In the long run, Harry was 
dispensable to Albus.

   Albus' secretive and manipulative nature also put all his plans in 
jepordy. How could he have gone to his death knowing that no one 
understood what he was trying to accomplish and believe that someone 
would figure it out in time? If he intended Snape to kill him and 
gain control of the wand, how did he expect that to happen?  The 
events on the Tower were unexpected and unlooked for.  Did he tell 
Snape about the wand - very unllikely based on DD's past behavior.  
What did he think would happen, if Snape became the master of such a 
potent weapon?   Did DD plan for Snape to kill LV after Harry died?

I agree that DD must have thought there was a chance for Harry to 
survive his encounter with LV, but he could not have been certain.  
He knew Harry had to die and he kept that information to himself for 
as long as humanly possible. Pride goeth before a fall. 

Nikkalmati