James and Sirius - "Coolness"

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 182688


> > Carol responded:
> > What does JKR think is "cool"?
> > Lupin, IIRC, says that [Sirius] and James were "the height of
> > cool." I don't want to second-guess JKR, but if Lupin is right,
> > if most of the students (except, probably, the Slytherins)
> > regarded a pair of "arrogant little berks" as "cool," their
> > judgment is (IMO) sadly lacking. (I know that Mike disagrees
> > with me; possibly JKR does as well.) <snip>

Potioncat:
Oh, I hate the way the posts line up! I'd like to read the entire 
post from the snipped section, but I don't have time to read evey 
post Carol wrote to find it. GRRRRR.

I agree with Carol's opinion of James and Sirius. But I don't think 
most of the students thought James and Sirius were cool. The coolness 
comment comes from Lupin, who goes out of his way to be nice, who 
praises easily and doesn't like to rock the boat.

>From the expressions in crowd in SWM, quite a few onlookers weren't 
thinking "Gee, these guys are cool." They were thinking, "I hope I'm 
not next."
> 
> Mike:
<snip> 
> 
> People like to point to the detentions and the hexing in the 
hallways 
> as defining their characters. Well, hexing in the hallways is what 
> wizarding kids do. It's not permanent, it's just their form of 
> slapstick humor. Look at the condition of Draco and company after 
the 
> DA responds on the Hogwarts Express at the end of OotP. If these 
were 
> normal humans with normal methods of fighting, we'd see Draco's 
> condition as worse than death. Yet he's back and fine at the start 
of 
> HBP. Hexing in the hallways is fun and games for wizard kids.

Potioncat:
Who do we hear of who hexes in the hallways for the fun of it? James 
and Harry (HBP). We hear of a Quidditch rivalry that grew to such 
hexing proportions students were sent to the hosptial wing. But that 
was between Slytherin to Griffindor. And as for the DA incidnet---
Draco was threatening Harry and Harry's friends stepped in. That 
wasn't hexing for fun. (Although those casting the spells might have 
enjoyed it.)

I'm not excusing the Slytherin-Griffindor Quidditch rivalry hexing. 
Just saying it had a purpose, not random fun.


> Mike:
> Does arrogance define them? I don't think so, I think their talents 
> define them. The fact that they could become Animagi at such a 
young 
> age and hide it right under the crooked nose of Albus Dumbledore 
> (read: they did it on their own) when it's supposed to be a 
dangerous 
> transformation if done wrong, speaks to their talents. Their 
talents 
> must be apparent to all the other young wizards. They are above 
> average, maybe way above average, in the one thing that other 
witches 
> and wizards on a whole look up to; magical abilities. That, above 
all 
> else, is what makes them "cool".

Potioncat:
Here is where we come closer to an agreement. I think these were 
bright, good looking---good at heart kids. So some of their 
misbehaviors were overlooked. That is, misbehavior was punished, but 
not seen as defining who they were. By those who liked them, anyway. 
The others probably did define them by their actions.

Kids who aren't good looking or who aren't so personable can't get 
away with these things.
> 


 Mike:
 But why does he have to be 
> locked up in the Shack when we never hear of any other werewolves 
> having to be locked up on full moon nights?

Potioncat:
Because they've been made to live in the forest, away from people. 
> 

> 
> Mike: 
> I can't possibly conceive of how Sirius going to the MoM to help 
> Harry (in OotP) was reckless, no matter what Snape said. 

Potioncat:
It was reckless from several standpoints. 
LV could have used him against Harry---for real.
Who knew how the situation would play out--Sirius could have ended up 
back in Azkaban just because of who he was.
His taunting of Bella in the middle of a battle was reckless.

Now, I'll admit, there's a tradition of liking a hero who's a little 
reckless. As far as I'm concerned, recklessness would go along with 
the bravery of Griffindors. But too much of it would be a bad thing. 
I don't think I'd want to be in a battle with a reckless companion--
or at least not one who would be reckless in battle.



>Mike: 
> So that's another thing I disagree with JKR on. Or do I? I like the 
> Marauders, so I am biased. But I don't find them to be egregiously 
> bullying nor overly arrogant nor, in the case of Sirius, 
ridiculously 
> reckless. But maybe JKR only painted the picture and is allowing me 
> to interpret it in anyway I like.


Potioncat:
There have been many many discussions about the Marauders and 
bullying. And it seems to me, that there are two main camps. Those 
who think that type of behavior in general is OK and those who don't. 
It seems to line up according to how people were in high school. 
Those who more often played such jokes or enjoying watching such 
jokes seem to like the Marauders and those who were sometimes the 
butt of such jokes, or didn't like such humor, don't care for the 
boys.

 
> Mike, who will continue to defend his Marauder buddies, cuz JKR has 
> allowed me to think of them as real people by transporting me 
> successfully into the Potterverse.

Potioncat:
And this is the other part of it. We often excuse behavior of friends 
when we wouldn't accept it from a non-friend. And certainly not from 
an enemy. I was very confused at a comment JKR made about Pansy. JKR 
identified Pansy as the girl-bully who had picked on her in school. 
Therefore, Pansy didn't get Draco. (There! That'll show you!) Yet JKR 
doesn't seem to think James and Sirius need any punishment. 

When my friends are bullies, they're just letting off steam. When 
your friends are bullies, they're bad.