Goblins, British school children and sterotypes ( was, Re: Muggle Parents and

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 184072

Alla: 

> That we cannot judge the entity, nation, group of people by one 
> representative? Okay, again, sure, of course we cannot in RL, but in 
> fiction? JKR cannot really give us many goblins in the story where 
> they are secondary characters, so I feel she gave us how one behaves.

Pippin:
But why? You've already said   that this one cowardly and
treacherous act on Harry's part doesn't make him a coward or a
traitor, but at the same time, you think JKR wants us to believe that
one cowardly and treacherous act on the part of a goblin makes not
only him but his whole race cowardly and treacherous. If they are,
shouldn't we say the same of wizards?


Doesn't it make more sense that she wants to show us how easily people
can be manipulated to embrace such a belief, even if they've been
taught that in real life such beliefs are wrong and dangerous? Why is
it so appealing to think that all goblins are bad? Because it
justifies the way wizards have been treating them? But wouldn't that
justify the way the goblins treat wizards too? 

Isn't it interesting that Harry wouldn't dare think of  asking Bill to
betray his employers, but he thinks a goblin would do it? That he is
worried about Griphook stealing the sword, but not any of the others,
even though he doesn't know Ollivander, Fleur or even Bill all that
well? Harry isn't consciously treating Griphook differently than the
others, but he's absorbed his culture's expectations of goblin
treachery and unconsciously acts accordingly.

I think what Bill was trying to explain to Harry was that goblins do
have a concept of right and wrong, and that they have in their eyes an
honest claim to some of the treasure that wizards have accused them of
stealing, so in their eyes it's wizards who are thieves. That is why
he wanted Harry to be careful, IMO, because  as we know, goblins show
no mercy to thieves. 

JKR characterized Griphook as a goblin fanatic. But I don't believe
she showed that all goblins are fanatic, so I have no reason to think
they all share Griphook's view. Bill himself says that this is a
belief among goblins, and Gringotts goblins are especially prone to
it, which shows that he doesn't believe all goblins think the same way. 



> Alla:
> 
> If somebody is my friend I do not make those qualifiers. I trust my 
> friend unconditionally. I will do basically anything for my friend, 
> as long as I do not consider it immoral or illegal, and expect my 
> friend to do same for me.

Pippin:
I'm sure it's the same for Bill and his goblin friends, but he's aware
that the goblins are a different breed, and they may have a different
concept of what their moral rights are, especially when it comes to
goblin-made treasure.

Exodus spoilers:
I'm reminded of the scene in Exodus (the novel) where Taha asks Ari
for Jordana. By Taha's standards he's doing a moral, honorable thing
by asking Ari for his sister, and by Ari's standards he's doing the
moral, honorable thing by punching Taha in the face. (And by my early
twenty-first century standards, they're both behaving immorally, since
neither one even considers asking Jordana.) Of course it's the end
of their friendship. But was Uris saying that Jews and Arabs should
never be friends, or that no Arabs can be trusted where women are
concerned?

I don't think so. IMO, he was showing how different customs and
beliefs could cause a tragic misunderstanding between two very moral
people who had been lifelong friends.

 I think Bill is aware that there could be a similar sort of conflict
between him and the goblins, and he qualifies his use of the word
"friend" because he doesn't want to get in the habit of taking their
friendship for granted. He wants to be able to stop and think, not
automatically react with outrage because a person he thought of as a
friend said something offensive. (And that has an echo, doesn't it?)

Pippin