CHAPDISC: DH27, The Final Hiding Place

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184126

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
> Chapter 27, The Final Hiding Place
<snip fine summary>
>  
> 1)  What did you think would be the 'final hiding place' when
reading the chapter title?  Were you expecting a Horcrux at Hogwarts
all along?

Carol responds:
I didn't have a particular hiding place in mind, but I did think from
the titile that they'd get to use the other tent and have at least a
*little* time to hide. as it is, they only got a moment's rest and
some pumpkin juice (and, of course, treatment with dittany, a
substance whose powers have been considerably enhanced since HBP). As
for a Horcrux at Hogwarts, I was pretty sure that the Ravenclaw
Horcrux was the tiara Harry had used to help mark the place where
"his" (the HBP's) Potions book was hidden. the mere fact that two
tiaras were mentioned in the same book seemed like a Clue with a
capital C--not to mention the same thing occurring at Shell Cottage
and all the stuff about Ravenclaw's "diadem." (As far as I can
determine from definitions and photos, there's not much difference
between the two terms except that a diadem seems to be heavier and
more elaborate.)

Which reminds me--sorry to stray OT here, but I don't think this point
has been made (or, at least, developed) before. Something Pippin said
recently made me realize that Auntie Muriel's goblin-made tiara has
magical properites. *It* caused Fleur and everyone around her,
including the miraculously but temporarily unscarred Bill, to appear
beautiful and glowing while she was wearing it. Silly me. I had
attributed that moment at Fleur and Bill's wedding to Veela power or
something in the ceremony itself or maybe her simple white gown, but,
of course, it was the power of the Goblin-made diamond-and-moonstone
tiara. I'm surprised that Griphook let it go so easily, accepting
Bill's "and paid for by Wizards" without protest. But, I suppose, he
was forcused on the Sword of Gryffindor, whose powers were more to his
taste. (Too bad they only work for Gryffindors, as far as I can tell.)
>  
> 2)  This is likely the shortest chapter in all of the HP books, yet
descriptions of the dragon take up quite a few paragraphs at the
beginning:  how the dragon feels, what it's doing while the Trio rest
by the lake, where it might go next, etc.  Then right before leaving 
the lakes, they watch the dragon take flight until it vanishes, even 
though Harry insisted they must leave at once.  Do you think the 
dragon plays a symbolic role?  Is it a significant part of this
chapter for another reason?  Or did you find the mentions of the
dragon more filler?

Carol:
If it's a symbol, it's not an obvious one. I think that most readers
sympathize with it for its prolonged suffering and hope that its
rewarded somehow for its (inadvertent) role in helping HRH escape.
Maybe there's something to be said for Hagrid's view of dragons as
"interestin' creatures" (as long as they're unaware of your presence).
It certainly provides a contrast to the dragons in GoF (who, BTW, were
also mistreated, if not so brutally--nesting mothers forced into
captivity and threatened by thieves who intend to steal what they
think is one of their eggs. IIRC, at least two eggs were trampled by
one of the tormented mothers in her fear and rage.) The dragon's
plight is a digression, but it's nice to see the Trio focusing on
something other than BVoldemort and the Horcruxes, if only for a
moment. And I was glad that they got a nice long laugh, too, at Ron's
remark that their break-in to Gringotts might have been noticed. 
 
> 3)  Harry's vision of Voldemort killing everyone within reach at 
Malfoy Manor is a first-hand view of Voldemort using the Elder wand.
Do you believe Voldemort exhibits extraordinary magical power in this
scene or were his powers about what you expected he was capable of
regardless of the wand?   Any thoughts on Bellatrix and Lucius
'[throwing] others behind them in their race for the door'? 

Carol:
The Elder Wand does exactly what Voldemort wants it to do, which is
kill everyone he aims at. Not even the Elder Wand can be expected to
kill more than one person at a time unless he uses some spell other
than Avada Kedavra. He's relieving his anger by killing as another man
might slam his fist into the wall multiple times. There's no
indication that the wand has failed him (it hasn't). IMO, the wand is
perfectly compatible with him, whether or not he's its master, until
*it* learns that Harry is its true master and chooses to betray him.
(It's as treacherous and murderous as he is.) I have more to say about
wands being more sentient than most readers are willing to credit a
stick of wood as being, but I'll wait for the disagreement with my
view that's bound to surface. At any rate, this is the point at which
JKR could and, IMO, should have shown Voldemort attempting to do some
spectacularly evil spell (and perhaps not succeeding as fully as he
intended). She missed the opportunity, IMO, and I remain unconvinced
that the wand failed to perform for Voldemort up until the
confrontation with Harry, and even then, it "killed" Harry, who would
have died along with the soul bit had it not been for his mother's
sacrifice and the shared blood that protected them both.

As for Lucius and Bellatrix, it's perfectly in character for them to
preserve their own lives at the expense of others. I take it that
Narcissa wasn't present. Nor, of course, was Draco, who was at school.
>  
> 4)  Voldemort initially believes his Horcruxes must be safe because
he would feel 'if he, himself, most important and precious, had been
attacked, mutilated[.]'  Comments about either Voldemort's reasoning
or how he describes his Horcruxes?  Did the course of Voldemort's
thoughts about his Horcruxes and the realization that Harry is hunting
them offer any new glimpses into his interior life? 

Carol:
In the unlikely event that you haven't read LOTR or seen the films and
somehow don't know or want to know what happens in either or both,
please skip to the next question! 

"Most important and precious" suggests Sauron and his Ring, along with
Gollum's "Precious," which he can no longer fully distinguish from
himself. Of course, there are differences, too, since the destruction
of the One Ring is also the destruction of Sauron and everything he
created, whereas the destruction of all the Horcruxes merely makes
Voldemort mortal. Setting aside the almost certainly deliberate
allusion to LOTR, Voldemort's words are those of an egomaniac who
can't conceive of being either defeated or outsmarted. (It's
interesting that he, who believes that death is the end of everything,
speculates that Dumbledore is interfering from beyond the grave--as
indeed he is via Portrait!DD and Headmaster Snape.) Also, of course,
his inability to sense the theft or destruction of his Horcruxes
indicates how irreparably mutilated his soul now is, barring the
infinitesimally small chance that he'll repent. I'm not sure I
understand what you have in mind about glimpses of Voldemort's
internal life. I don't think he really has one. It's all plotting and
scheming or rage or fear, with the fear offset by supreme egotism. (No
one else has ever discovered the RoR? How did all those other objects
get in there, then?) He's completely unable to reason from B to C, as
Josephine Tey would say.
>  
> 5)  If you were a Harry!Horcrux theorist, or argued against the
theory, did you think the possibility of Harry being the final Horcrux
was defunct when the last Horcrux was revealed as an object hidden at
Hogwarts?  Were you keeping count at that point?  Were you already
suspecting the possibility of a twist with the Horcruxes?

Carol:
I was keeping count, of course, and since I had suspected the tiara as
the Ravenclaw Horcrux since HBP, it made no difference to my
(incorrect) view that Harry "couldn't" be a Horcrux because a Horcrux
is a deliberate creation requiring an encasing spell and because of
the complications that would ensue--Harry would have to die to destroy
the Horcrux, but Harry couldn't be "the one with the power to vanquish
the Dark Lord" if he were dead. I still think that an accidental
Horcrux is not quite the same thing as a Horcrux, but it took "The
Prince's Tale" to persuade me that I was wrong. (I did anticipate a
kind of resurrection for Harry if he was indeed a Horcrux based on the
resurrection symbolism of his holly-and-phoenix-feather wand, but that
was before Hermione accidentally broke it.) But, yes, a plot twist of
some sort involving Horcruxes was almost inevitable given that the
author is JKR.
>   
> 6)  Voldemort is fairly certain the Potter boy couldn't know of his
connection to the Gaunts, or about the cave, until he remembers
Dumbledore.  In a final assessment of why Dumbledore was the only 
wizard Voldemort reportedly feared, what was the basis of Voldemort's
fear?  Did it have to do with Dumbledore's knowledge of Tom Riddle's
past or other factors?

Carol:
He certainly knew that Dumbledore had talked with Mrs. Cole and knew
about some of his misdeeds (the stolen mouth organ, etc.), and he knew
that DD, unlike the other teachers, never trusted him. He may have
realized that DD suspected that he was behind the release of
Slytherin's monster (but, of course, couldn't prove it). And he knows
that DD knew his middle name. If he, Tom, could trace the Gaunts to
Little Hangleton, DD could do the same. He knows DD's power and
intelligence, and he feared him without having any idea that some of
that power came from the Elder Wand. Not even Voldemort can hide from
himself that Dumbledore was a very great Wizard, as great in his way
as Voldemort himself--or, at least, potentially as great, in LV's
view, if he didn't refrain from performing certain types of magic. At
any rate, Voldemort can't conceive of anyone except DD figuring out
the secret of the Horcruxes and he knows that DD was Harry's mentor.
Limited though LV's reasoning powers are in some respects, it's not
surprising that he concludes, correctly, that Dumbledore is somehow
responsible for Harry's discovery and theft of the cup Horcrux.
(Ironically, that's one Horcrux whose location DD didn't figure out
though he did show Harry exactly what it looked like.) 
>  
> 7)  Harry is the one to determine when they jump off the dragon;
he's the one who casts the protective spells.  When Hermione attempts
to plan their trip to Hogwarts rather than following Harry's lead, 
Harry 'firmly' decides the course of action.  Is this a new twist in
the Harry/Hermione relationship?  Do you think something changed
between them over the course of the year or is it typical that Harry
takes over in certain situations?

Carol:
It's odd that Harry casts the protective spells, which he learned from
her, but I don't think it's odd that he tells them when to jump off.
(In contrast, it's Hermione who thinks to cast Defodio ("Dig") spells
to help the dragon widen the passage, and he quite willingly follows
her lead. I think it would be out of character for Hermione, who hates
flying but probably hates falling even more, to suggest that they
jump. Action, especially involving heights, is Harry's department. But
also, this is Harry's quest; he's the one who has to face Voldemort.
He's the one who has the visions of Voldemort. Now that he knows it's
time, that Voldemort knows about the Horcruxes and will soon be at
Hogwarts, he's not going to allow any opposition. This time, in
contrast to OoP and the MoM expedition, he's not raging or panicking,
and the evidence that he's right (this is not some implanted vision
intended to trick him) is overwhelming. There's no arguing against his
rhetorical question, "Can you imagine what [Voldemort's] going to do
when he realizes the ring and the locket are gone?" (DH Am. ed. 552).
He disposes of her remaining objections quickly and firmly (maybe
being Quidditch captain helped him learn some needed leadership
skills), but he also has the advantage of being both right and in
control. At some other point in their three-way friendship Hermione
will no doubt assume her old role as the thinker and planner, but now
is the time for action.
> 
> 8)  Any thoughts on Harry's decision to go to Hogsmeade even after
learning Voldemort believed it would be 'impossible' for Harry to
enter Hogsmeade undetected?  Did Harry forget this point in his haste
to find the last Horcrux?

Carol:
Possibly Harry thinks that the Invisibility Cloak, Ignotus Peverell's
own cloak and a Hallow of which he is the rightful owner, will be
sufficient. Either that or he knows that they'll face obstacles but
have to act now, regardless. And Voldemort also thinks it's
"impossible" that any of the remaining Horcruxes could have been
stolen, much less destroyed--and, of course, Voldemort is wrong in
that regard. He could be equally wrong about the protections around
Hogsmeade being "impossible" to get by. 

Carol, who has no additional questions and congratulates Jen on coming
up with such good ones for a short and tricky chapter!