Chapter 27 Discussion / Why LV is bad / How TMR found the CoS / Cup Soul Bit

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184170

Catlady wrote: <snip>
> Adding more detail to Joey's answer, TMR would have looked up the
layout of the Castle during the time of the Founders. That room may
not have been a bathroom then, or may have been Salazar's private
bathroom; the castle may have been smaller then. TMR would have looked
up everything he could find about where Salazar hung out and where had
he hidden other treasures. If he learned that Salazar had a habit of
using Parseltongue as a password for hiding places, or if a legend had
lingered in Slytherin House that Salazar's secret chamber was opened
by speaking in Parseltongue, TMR would have gone everywhere he could
in the Castle, at the least the parts that had existed in the
Founders' time, speaking Parseltongue just to see what happened. When
he spoke Parseltongue in that bathroom, maybe the engraved image of a
snake responded by sparkling at him, so he knew he was on the right track.

Carol responds:
That's a good answer, and yet surely Dumbledore also would have looked
at old plans of the castle. Another thng, too. If he, like Harry,
heard it inside the walls, he would have figured out, as Hermione did,
that it was roaming the pipes and that, therefore, the entrance to the
underground chamber must be through a bathroom.

I always assumed that the Basilisk sensed the presence of Slytherin's
heir in the castle and started roaming the pipes, or that it always
roamed the pipes and Tom Riddle heard it, just as Harry did, which
gave a sense of urgency to the hunt for the beast. He could somehow
have traced it or even, given his powers and the fact that he was
Slytherin's heir, spoken telepathically with it to find out where the
entrance to the chamber was. I always thought that Dumbledore failed
to find it because he couldn't speak Parseltongue. HBP seems to
indicate otherwise (unless it's another memory lapse on JKR's part).
But I think that something, in addition to speaking Parsletongue, gave
Tom and advantage over Dumbledore. I think, in part, it's because he's
a natural Parselmouth, born, like the Gaunts (who apparently never
attended Hogwarts) with the ability to speak Parseltongue, whereas,
for Dumbledore (who perhaps couldn't hear the snake?), it was a
learned language, like Mermish (or Bulgarian). Little Tom tells
Dumbledore that snakes come to him and speak to him of their own
volition. The Basilisk (and Voldemort's dear Nagini) would be no
different.

All of which leads me to wonder: What happened to Salazar Slytherin's
other descendants? Did he have a child or grandchild at Hogwarts at
the time he left Hogwarts never to return? Was that child not a
Parselmouth, or was he or seh sworn to secrecy regarding the existence
of the Basilisk? What about later descendants? I suspect that the
surname Slytherin died out quickly so that he had descendants only in
the female line (from a daughter or granddaughter). These descendants
married first into the Peverell family (which in turn became extinct
in the male line) and then into the Gaunt family (which at some point
started intermarrying perhaps because it knew of no other families
descended from Slytherin). The Peverells, PureBloods according to
Marvolo Gaunt, would have gone to Hogwarts and most likely met their
brides there. At what point did Antioch Peverell's Gaunt descendants
stop attending Hogwarts, and why had no Hogwarts-attending descendant
of Slytherin not discovered the existence of the Chamber of Secrets? 

I can't see Salazar Slytherin being so furious with the other three
Founders that he pulled his children or grandchildren out of Hogwarts
and demanded that they be home-schooled. That would defeat the purpose
of having his true heir open the Chamber of Secrets later. Could the
Parseltongue gene have skipped a huge number of generations only to
surface nine hundred years later in the demented Gaunts? that seems
unlikely, too. *Something*--aside from being a Parselmouth and
attending Hogwarts, unlike Marvolo and his children (who never read
the messages delivered to them by owls and would have ignored the
Hogwarts invitations)--made Tom "special." Maybe it was that snakes
came to him, voluntarily talked to him (as they must have done to
Slytherin). Whatever made Tom Slytherin's true heir after generations
of his descendants, at least some of whom must have been Parselmouths,
attended Hogwarts must have been what enabled him and him alone to
find and open the Chamber of Secrets.
> 
Carol earlier:
> << wondering how the cup and tiara soul bits would have manifested
> themselves if they had not been destroyed >>

Catlady: 
> The cup responded, just off-page, when Hermione destroyed it because
Ron decided it was her turn to destroy a Horcrux. I feel sure it put
up illusions to prey on her insecurities, just as the locket did to
Ron. Maybe her insecurities were about Ron not loving her, and maybe
Ron and Harry mocking her for having no wizarding ancestors.

Carol:
Maybe, but the locket, which the Trio foolishly wore around their
necks (near their hearts, if that matters), had time to get to know
the Trio, to sense their thoughts and influence them. Ron, already
jealous and insecure despite his efforts to fight off those feelings
for more than six years, was most susceptible. The cup, however, could
not be worn, and they'd only had it in their possession for a few
hours when it was destroyed. Hermione certainly had not formed any
kind of bond with it, and it wouldn't know how to torment her. Also,
to state the obvious, it's a *cup.* The diary drew in its victims
through an interactive relationship involving reading and writing. The
locket, which could be worn, sensed and played on their insecurities,
fears, and resentments. It also weakened them by robbing them of
cheerfulness and hope, preventing Harry from casting an effective
Patronus. And once it was *opened* (like the diary) it could interact
with its enemy. (Interestingly, it chose Ron, not Harry, to torment,
probably because he was the one holding the sword.) But a cup can't be
read or worn or opened. How would it know that it was under threat of
destruction? How would it open itself up so that the soul bit could
torment the would-be destroyer? My thought is that it might seduce an
unwary person through its beauty (cf. Hepzibah, who liked to look at
it before it was even cursed). Maybe handling it often, regarding it
as "my precious," even foolishly drinking from it, might cause a
relationship similar to the one between the locket and Ron. But,
still, a cup can't open to reveal its soul bit. 

As for the tiara, it probably worked like the Sorting Hat; it had to
be put on the head to interact with the wearer's mind. Anyone who put
it on knowing it to be Ravenclaw's diadem and expecting to become
brilliant and wise (tempted as DD was with the cursed ring, but at
least he destroyed the soul bit first!) would be in serious trouble.
But as long as it wasn't placed on the person's head, I don't see how
it could interact with him or her. Certainly, it didn't interact with
Harry. It merely vibrates or trembles, "bleeds," and screams faintly
after being burned by the Fiendfyre. I suspect that the cup behaved in
a similar fashion. (The diary bled ink and gave a "dreadful, piercing
scream. I have no idea whether the ring screamed, but it, or rather
Voldemort, certainly got its/his revenge for its destruction via the
curse he placed on it.) But Ron's and Hermione's behavior in the RoR
seems to indicate that they've just had an exciting little adventure,
not a horrific encounter with an evil object like Ron's with the locket.

BTW, I'm surprised that the tiara was tarnished. I'm sure that when
Helena stole it, it was as bright and beautiful as Auntie Muriel's
Goblin-made tiara. Was that because it was Wizard-made (well,
Witch-made) and lacked the Goblin's protective enchantments (silver,
though beautiful, will tarnish if it's not cared for) or because
Voldemort deliberately made it look unattractive like the junk around
it? Certainly, Harry wasn't seduced by its beauty? And yet Voldemort,
great mind that he is, thought that he alone had found that room full
of junk. Still, taking away its lustre would be an extra precaution
similar to the curse he placed on the ring--*just in case* someone of
extraordinary intellect almost as great as his own (in LV's mind, I
mean) were to find that hidden room. Making it look tarnished and
worthless was the perfect way to hide it in plain sight.

Carol, now wondering how Ron and Hermione got back out of the Chamber
of Secrets without Fawkes to hold on to