Individual characters too stubborn for Dumbledore to manipulate or not? WAS:

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185095

Carol responds:
But aren't James and Lily exactly what you're looking for, people who
refused to do what Dumbledore wanted?

Alla:

Yes and no. I was looking for the characters who refused to do what 
Dumbledore wanted AND in whose fate we would have seen that they 
chose the better way, the right way. And that would have showed me 
what Pippin was arguing – that Dumbledore's manipulations are seen as 
more foolish than dangerous, because it would have shown that no 
matter what Dumbledore tries to do, people are not pawns and would do 
what's right. I would think that JKR is saying that had Potters 
chosen DD they could have been alive. Moreover, it seems to me that 
JKR is excusing Dumbledore  here to such a degree that I find well, 
laughable. Dumbledore took away for his selfish self interest what 
seemed to me as James and/ or Lily last hope for survival – his 
invisibility cloak. At least Dumbledore has a decency to feel bad 
about that and what do we hear from Harry? He tries to convince 
Dumbledore that no, oh no that would not have mattered. Um, maybe 
not, Harry, of course it is not a guarantee, but do you want to bet 
on it?


Carol:
 For that matter, I'm pretty sure
that Dumbledore didn't want Peter Pettigrew to do what he did, either.
Nor, of course, did Voldemort, who knew perfectly well what Dumbledore
believed and wanted and acted in contradiction to Dumbledore's ideas
on love and the greater good. <SNIP>

Alla:

Well, sure, but Voldemort is a given and I mention him, Pettigrew, 
well, I was not going to mention him, seems pretty much of the same 
variety to me.

Carol:
<SNIP>
Absolutely, Dumbledore is seriously flawed. IMO, he's an egotistical
hypocrite. He is undoubtedly a manipulator and secretive to a fault.
But I think it's simplistic to blame everything bad that happens to
the characters he deals with on him. The Order members chose to be in
the Order. They knew that they were risking their lives. <SNIP>

Alla:

I have no beef with the argument that Order members chose to risk 
their lives, of course they did. I am arguing that they did not sign 
up for **increased** risk of their lives because of their commander. 
Whatever hurts, deaths may come from Voldemort – sure, but not 
whatever I think was Dumbledore contributing to their sufferings.


JMO,

Alla