Dumbledore the Manipulator WAS :Re: Sirius and Snape parallels again

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185102

Pippin:

You mean like Harry and Hermione were willing to watch while Ron got
clobbered in the chess game? It would have been loyal and brave of
them to be taken also, but it would have left nobody to deal with
"Snape". <SNIP>

Alla:

They wanted to try, did they not? They wanted  to try to save their 
friend and that was not quite real battle, was it not? I would think 
they knew pretty well that Ron was not really dying, or anything? The 
ones who went ahead could have been in a very real danger, but Ron? I 
mean, yes I know he was hurt, but to me this is not a direct analogy, 
but quite distinct one. IMO of course. 


Pippin:
Dumbledore has Scenes with lots of people: Snape, Harry, the Dursleys,
Fudge and so on. Why would he be afraid of a scene with Sirius? As he
says, he gets complaints every day about how he runs the school, why
should he be afraid of getting complaints about how he runs the 
Order? <SNIP>

Alla:

Oh I agree that Dumbledore is not afraid of just ANY scene. However, 
I do think that Dumbledore may just be very afraid of the scene where 
Sirius may threaten to take Harry and go somewhere. This is a scene, 
which result could be the threat to Dumbledore's plan for Harry. You  
are arguing that Dumbledore would be fine with that?



Pippin:
The question is not whether the machinations work, but whether the
truth wouldn't have worked just as well, with a lot less fuss.
Slughorn *does* tell DD to go to hell, figuratively. DD can't get the
memory out of him. Harry does, by telling him the truth, which is even
truer than Harry knows -- he's the Chosen One and he needs that 
memory.

Alla:

Hm,  the only reason Harry was able to even **get** to Slughorn in 
the first place was because Dumbledore took him to Slughorn. The only 
reason why Harry was able to guilt memory out of  drunken Slughorn 
was because Dumbledore molded him into doing something that he really 
really did not want to do – return to teaching. To make sure he 
returns to teaching  Dumbledore put in front of him a bat – a boy 
with green eyes of the exact same shape as his favorite student.
 I am very amused by your suggestion that truth would have indeed 
worked with less fuss here. Slughorn was in no condition to **hear** 
the truth and make an informed choice IMO, he was completely drunk. 
YES, Harry needed that memory, but he got it after the chain of very 
long and annoying manipulation of the man IMO.

Pippin:
Once Snape and Harry learn the truth, they're still willing to do what
Dumbledore asked of them -- doesn't that argue that he could have told
them the truth in the first place, provided they trusted him enough
to believe it? <SNIP>

Alla:

I do not get it. Snape is angry when he learns the truth, but he 
still sticks with doing what Dumbledore tells him to, I do not see 
that Snape decides to do it because he feels it is a right thing to 
do. I am not sure how you figure that Snape just makes this decision.

Harry – sure, scene in the Headmaster's office to me beautifully 
describes that Harry chose to follow Dumbledore's plan. However, I do 
not see how this proves your point. Harry is at the end of the robe. 
He sees no other choices but to follow Dumbledore's plan.  But no 
other options were provided to him EVER. How about Dumbledore doing 
some brainstorming and trying to figure out whether Horcrux can be 
taken out of alive Harry? How about Dumbledore involving Harry in it?

I disagree with Lizzyben  that Dumbledore groomed Harry for death 
from infancy of course, however I disagree with her in the degrees of 
the argument, not so much in principle. I guess it is a question of 
nature v nurture, etc. How much of Harry's saving people thing been 
inborn? I certainly agree for example that some character traits we 
inherit – I totally see how shy my niece was for example when she was 
three months old and how differently my nephew reacts to the people 
who are not his immediate family members.

However, if Lizzyben ever decides to rephrase her proposition that 
Dumbledore thoroughly cultivated whatever sacrificial character Harry 
may have inherited and deliberately not presented him with any other 
options than to die for others, I would totally agree with her. I 
think saving people IS in Harry's soul, however the degree to which 
Dumbledore cultivated it should be on his conscience only. I do not 
think that Dumbledore for example let Harry go to Chambers 
deliberately, since as it was mentioned he did not know where it was. 
But I am absolutely convinced that he knew about Qurrelmort and did 
not move a finger when three eleven year olds went to the mission 
that could have resulted in their deaths. Yes, I know I said above 
that it was not real, but I meant the puzzles part.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
The Order was outnumbered 20 to one in the first war. Why? If so many
people trusted Dumbledore and hated Voldemort, and Dumbledore is so
good at molding people, why couldn't Dumbledore mold as many as he 
needed? <SNIP>

Alla:

Well, we did agree that Dumbledore does not want to manipulate crowd, 
no? I think the answer is that he simply did not have enough people 
on hand whom he could manipulate individually?