CHAPDISC: DH35, KING'S CROSS

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 185139

Chapter Discussion: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 35,
KING CROSS

<snip> 

> Albus also attempts to explain his plans regarding the Elder Wand.
He does not succeed for this reader.

Carol responds:
Nor for this one, but I wish you'd elaborated further, anyway! Great
summary otherwise, Alla.
> 
> 
> 1.	How many nods to Greek philosophers you can find in this 
> chapter?

Carol responds:

I must be really rusty, but I didn't see any. Are you thinking of
Plato's ideal forms?
> 
> 2.    Is the action in this chapter happens in Harry's head or some 
> other place? Explain why or why not.

Carol responds:
Yes and no. I think it's real in that he's really talking to the dead
Dumbledore and really seeing what will become of Voldemort's tattered
soul if they both die. I think that he really had the choice to wait
for a train and "go on." But I also think that Harry and Voldemort are
lying on the grass, breathing and unconscious, but their souls (not
the same as the life force--we know that in the WW, soul-sucked people
continue to move and breathe) have temporarily left their bodies and
entered, not the realm of the dead, but the place of waiting where
some Wizards choose to become ghosts and others choose to "go on."
Probably not all of them are met by a loved one or mentor (though I
like to think that Snape is met by Lily, actually looking into her
eyes as he wakes up). Had Harry chosen to "go on," Voldemort's soul
would have been trapped in that Limbo under the chair and once Nagini
was killed, he would have died. But since Harry chose to go back and
fight him, both of them are restored to consciousness when he returns.
(It's clear that their bodies have been lying very still under the
trees. Voldemort has been to all intents and purposes
unconscious--possibly the DEs can't tell whether he's alive or
dead--and Harry has to all appearances been dead. Clearly his chest
has not been rising and falling or the DEs would know that he wasn't
truly dead and would have AKd him themselves. Then, again, it's
inconceivable to them that hiLV's AK could fail.)
> 
> 3.    Where do you think Dumbledore spends his days now?

Carol responds:
Not in "King's Cross" with the mangled Voldie soul! He didn't know
where he was. Apparently, he was summoned to Harry by Harry's desire
for answers, just as the clothes appeared when he realized (like the
fallen Adam but without forfeiting whatever innocence he retains) that
he was naked. I suspect that he'll go looking for the newly dead
Grindelwald at some point, or for Snape. It's interesting that his
hand is healed (as is Harry's scar) and he's wearing brightly colored
robes, but he still has his glasses (as does James in "The forest
Again"), but Harry no longer needs his. There's no sense of time
passing, or at least, Harry seems confused about time. Maybe dead
Wizards can go back and forth in time and observe events in the living
world that they once inhabited without being part of that world? I
absolutely don't know the answer to your question--nor does JKR, who
took care not to show us what would happen if Harry went "on." But
Dumbledore seems content (now that the living Harry has forgiven him
for not telling him everything and for, in essence, tempting him with
the Hallows. There's no indication that Harry now views DD as having
raised him as a pig to be slaughtered. Death clearly *is* "the next
great adventure" and not to be feared except by those whose souls are
mangled beyond repair and who are incapable of repentance and
therefore of redemption. It also seems to be a place where scars and
injuries are healed--not only DD's hand and Harry's scar but Lupin's
lycanthropy and the mental and emotional scars that Sirius Black
received in Azkaban (he looks young and happy again when Harry sees
him). I suspect that Luna is right; loved ones can be reunited in the
afterlife. Whether dead DD has yet had the courage to face Ariana I
don't know, but I think he could if he wanted to.
> 
> 4.	The theme of the hero given a choice whether to rest or to go 
back and possibly be hurt more or prevail over the enemy is fairly
common in the fantasy genre. When Harry makes his decision to go back
did you feel at any time that he is going back to die for real now?
Explain why or why not.

Carol responds:
I was always sure that Harry would live, and I thought that *if* he
turned out to be a Horcrux, he would have to come back from the dead
or have a near-death experience or seem to die because he couldn't
both die to destroy the Horcrux *and* kill Voldemort. (It was obvious
from the outset that Voldie would die--JKR couldn't leave an imperiled
WW with no "Chosen One"). Once Harry chose to go back, there was no
doubt in my mind that he would return and that he would be victorious.
I didn't anticipate the exact circumstances but I still hoped that he
wouldn't cast an AK.
> 
> 5.	"Of house elves and children's tales, of love, loyalty and 
innocence, Voldemort knows and understands nothing. Nothing. That 
they all have a power beyond his own, a power beyond the reach of any
 magic, is a truth he had never grasped". I think that this quote
pretty much sums up one of the major themes in the series. Do you
agree or disagree? Explain why or why not.

Carol responds:
I agree. That quote stood out particularly to me on a rereading. The
Love theme in particular has been stressed throughout. Loyalty, too,
has been important--we see Ron's loyalty tested on several occasions,
the Hufflepuffs are all about loyalty, and the question of where
Snape's loyalties lie has be central since SS/PS. House-Elves (with
the exception of Kreacher) illustrate innocence; House-elves
*including* Kreacher illustrate loyalty. Children's tales I'm not so
sure about. They deal with themes like death, jealousy, greed, love,
on a rather primitive level (I'm thinking of Grimm and the tale of the
three Brothers and the Lemony Snicket books, not Winnie the Pooh).
OTOH, some children's books, including the HP books, parts of "The
Hobbit," and "the Boy in Striped Pajamas") deal with the same themes
in a more sophisticated fashion. LV would not understand why innocence
usually triumphs in a fairy tale, and he wouldn't understand the
motivations of the protagonists in the other books I've named, either.
> 
> 6.	List discussed the injured baby under the table extensively  in
the past, but if you want to please discuss some more here.

Carol responds:
First, it reminds me of the helpless, ugly Baby!mort of GoF (symbolic,
perhaps, of LV's stunted emotional development) but in a more extreme
form, no longer able to issue orders or even to speak. I think that
Harry's revulsion is similar to what he felt when he wanted Voldie in
that form to drown, only this time it's already dead (death isn't
annihilation, even for Voldemort). Dumbledore has been criticized for
not comforting it and not wanting Harry to comfort it, but I think
it's beyond comfort. "The mind is its own place and can make a hell of
heaven and a heaven of hell." Voldemort's mind is in perpetual and
incurable torment of his own making. To pick him up and try to comfort
him would either be useless (agape love, selflessness, the desire to
comfort are beyond his comprehension) or would make matters worse. If
he recognized Harry, he would be far angrier and far more humiliated
than Severus rescued by James but he would be unable to speak his
rage. I can see the helpless baby form with its ugly red face trying
to rear up and strike him and Harry dropping him in horror. The only
thing to do is to leave the irredeemable Voldemort to his self-imposed
eternal despair. (For him, death *is* to be feared, but only because
he made it so through his own beliefs and actions.)
> 
> 7.	Can somebody explain to me one more time what was Dumbledore's
rationale in sending Harry on Hallows Quest?

Carol:
Maybe JKR will clarify it in he encyclopedia. My only thought is that
DD thought that Harry, unlike himself, was worthy of becoming the
Master of Death (whatever that means) and that if he didn't sacrifice
himself and the drop of blood didn't do it's job, maybe having all
three Hallows would protect him. That's probably why DD gave him the
Resurrection Stone so he'd have it and the Cloak, at least, when the
time came to face Voldemort. Also, having Hermione read the "Tale of
the Three Brothers" (and HRH figure out the mystery) enabled Harry to
use the Resurrection Stone when the time came. It also helped Harry to
understand what the Elder Wand was and why Voldemort wanted it.

> 
> 8.	"If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end  up
with  the Elder Wand, didn't you? "I admit that was my intention,"
said Dumbledore, "but it did not work as I    intended, did it?
> "No," said Harry, That bit didn't work out"
> 
> What do you think Harry meant by his question? What do you think 
Albus' actual plan was?

Carol responds:

As I started to say in response to the previous question, DD had no
way of knowing when he wrote his will that Draco's Expelliarmus would
ruin his plan to rob the wand of its powers through Snape's AK or
that, for the same reason, the wand would not be in Snape's
possession. Exactly what he intended is not clear, but I think that LV
would never have found the wand. (If Snape had it, it could not have
been buried with DD.) LV would not have found out that it didn't work
for him (or anyone) and Snape would have been safe. He and Portrait!DD
could have agreed on a cover story if LV questioned Snape about the
wand. Maybe Snape discovered that it was a useless stick and threw it
into the ocean or set fire to it--easily demonstrated through a memory
of his doing exactly that. At any rate, DD's words make clear to me
that he didn't expect Snape to die. (Obviously, he could not have
anticipated the manner or circumstances of Snape's death; he thought
that Snape would see Nagini protected and find a way to tell Harry
about the soul bit.)


> 
> 9.	Why do you think chapter was named "King's cross"?

Carol responds;
First, because that's where the chapter seemed to take place. Harry's
idea of a journey into the afterlife resembles his journey to his new
life at Hogwarts, so King's Cross in the dream is like a Platform 9
3/4 with no passengers but himself. (DD doesn't need the train--he's
already "gone on"--and LV will lie there forgotten under the bench,
never getting on the train.) But I think that Christian readers will
see Christ symbolism--Christ the King died on the Cross to redeem
mankind; Harry "died" to save the WW. Hardly the same thing and
Harry's near-death experience is only a symbolic resurrection, not a
real one. Nevertheless, the Christ figure symbolism is there for those
who wish to find it. Those who reject the idea are free to ignore it.
(Again, a Christ figure is not the same as Christ himself. No one who
sees Harry as a Christ figure sees him as part of the Trinity or the
literal son of God. It's sort of like saying that Voldemort is a Satan
or devil figure or archetype without being literally Satan. Not that
he comes anywhere close to Milton's Satan as a literary character!)
> 
> 10.	Please add your own question here.

Carol:

Why do you think that Harry isn't wearing his glasses and doesn't need
them in this chapter? What do the glasses symbolize?

Carol, thanking Alla for the great questions and agreeing with her
that, once again, DD has not told Harry "everything"!