James and Sirius as Bullies (WAS: student!Snape keeping Lupin's ...)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 181189

> zgirnius:
> I am inclined to believe he does stand by as others use hexes, for
> the most part, in the first five years at school. Those hexes might
> be his, that I would consider reasonably likely both because he is 
> known to have invented some in that time frame, and because it 
> would form an alternative basis for Sirius's claims of his 
> precocious Dark Arts knowledge. <snip>

Mike:
Wow, so Umbridge was right, theory was good enough, huh? Snape got 
good at hexes without even trying them out. In fact, he was so good, 
he could invent his own spells and pass them on to his buds ready 
for deployment without trying them out either. Or did you notice a 
practice range for new spells akin to a firing range in the RW? 
Besides, why stop after five years? Canon only tells us for sure 
that Snape cursed James in seventh year. If he managed to hold out 
for five years, why not hold out for six? Because of Lily? Like Lily 
would think less of Sev if her best friend fought back against 
that "toerag" Potter. I'm not seeing that.

As for an alternative basis for his rep, what are you suggesting? 
That his Slyth pals hit somebody with one of his inventions and 
announced to the victim "Courtesy of Severus Snape, inventor"? 
Harry used the HBP spells and HBP potions improvements all year, 
did you notice if anyone besides Ron and Hermione knew who really 
invented them? Or do you think the rest of the school attributed 
them to Harry, the guy who cast them and used the potions hints?



> > Mike:
> > First, Harry gets plenty of detentions and none of 
> > them were for bullying. 
> 
> zgirnius:
> <snip> but I listed a specific detention, served by James and 
> Sirius together for the same specific victim and offense.

Mike:
Right, that was one. Who knows how many more there were for bullying, 
and how many were for other transgressions - curfew, backtalking 
teachers, etc. Like I admitted twice in the post you're responding 
to, James and Sirius were bullies.


> zgirnius:
> I don't see the relevance of this response. Whether Snape did 
> things, or others did things, does not alter what was actually 
> done, by James and Sirius together, to Bertram Aubrey. Unless you 
> are proposing Snape forged the record to which I refer?

Mike:
It wasn't in response to you or anyone in particular. I also wasn't 
responding to one specific point. And as been pointed out by 
Montavilla and Carol, I was wrong about the detention boxes.



> > Mike:
> > But it seemed like the times fostered more open encounters
> > by budding DEs that would lead to escalating the number of 
> > detentions. 
> 
> zgirnius:
> Aubrey is not the surname of any Death Eater we have met.

Mike:
So that proves the times didn't foster more openess of battles 
between proto-DEs and Gryffs? Because in *one* case James and Sirius 
hexed a kid that didn't become a DE?


> > Mike:
> > Lastly, Sirius allowed as how Snape is a slippery character,
> > smart enough to keep himself off the radar 

> zgirnius:
> Again, I fail to see the relevance. If Snape hexed people too, it 
> does not change what James and Sirius were, to him and to others.

Mike:
Since I wasn't making a single-minded point, I think it was relevant 
to the overall dynamic between the boys. It ties in to the detention 
box. Though Harry may have read Snape's name, it didn't register in 
the way reading his father's and godfather's names did, therefore 
it wasn't mentioned by the creatrix. *IF* he read Snape's name.



> Or are you trying to simultaneously build a case against Snape?

Mike:
You noticed! <eg>


> zgirnius:
> I don't think he was active in the way the two Marauders were,
> except after his breakup with Lily. I don't doubt he had some
> sort of social involvement with unpleasant characters in
> Slytherin who did actively engage in bullying, and enabled this
> behavior by helping to improve their repertoire.

Mike:
Since canon said that Avery and Mulciber were Sev's friends, since 
Lily points out the "evil" spells they attempted on Mary and Sev 
changed the topic to avoid rather than deny it, since Lily also 
called them and Sev future DEs and points out that Sev didn't even 
deny that, all occuring BEFORE the breakup, I find it hard to believe 
that Sev was clean in the battles between him and MWPP. Less of an 
atagonist than James and Sirius, sure, everyone was less than those 
two it seems. But I don't buy Sev standing on the sidelines.


> zgirnius:
> All I am arguing is that James and Sirius were schoolyard
> bullies, and Severus was one of their targets. 

Mike:
And all I'm arguing is that Sev should not be held harmless in this 
schoolyard contest of magic. It seems contradictory to claim Sev was 
this great DADA expert as a kid and later, while at the same time 
claiming he never or rarely took part in the kind of exchanges that 
would foment that reputation. Since when do school kids give credit 
to school grades for a rep like this?


> zgirnius:
> The Prank is one possible exception 

Mike:
Not to me. 
I made my case in my previous post, I'm adding more below.


> zgirnius:
> Snape's teaching style has never resulted in so much as a
> reprimand, so far as we know. This would be the basis of an
> argument that it was perfectly acceptable in the WW, <snip>

Mike:
Yes, this was my point. What we may consider abominable in the RW 
does not register the same in the WW. Blowing up Aubrey's head sounds 
horrific, but it's *magic*, not RW.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181177

> Carol:
> I agree with you that it's one teenage boy daring another to show
> he's not afraid and tempting him with bait he can't refuse. But
> *Sirius knows what's in there*--a fully grown werewolf who is not
> restrained in any way--and *he knows how to encounter the werewolf
> safely*, which Severus doesn't.

Mike:
My answer is still the same. Sev knows he, along with the rest of the 
school, is suppose to stay away from the Willow. He knows what the 
Marauders are doing is wrong, and him doing it doesn't make it right. 
He highly suspects that Lupin is a werewolf and knows that Lupin is 
being secreted at the end of that tunnel. That he doesn't know how 
the Marauders are getting away with it, surviving a werewolf 
encounter, makes it even more ridiculous that he would attempt it 
anyway. Sirius tells him how to get past the Willow and *probably* 
taunts him. So what?

I'll give you my analogy. It's like one thief (Sirius) robbed a house 
and gave the house key he had to a second thief (Severus). The first 
thief knows the owner is in there with a shotgun. The second thief 
doesn't know that for sure, but suspects it. But the second thief 
figures if the first thief got away with it, he can too. The first 
thief failed to mention that he had previously ascertained that the 
owner was out of ammunition when he robbed the place. So, is it the 
first thief's fault if the second thief gets shot trying to rob the 
house? I doubt the authorities will look at it that way.

"But Professor Dumbledore, Sirius Black told me how to get past the 
Willow." 
"Yes Severus, we've established that. Now how exactly did that force 
you to go down there?"

Mike