Snape's Culpability in the Prank

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 181304

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181275
> > Mike:
> > But yep, all Severus' fault. <snip>

> Carol responds:
> It can't be *all* Severus's fault that he took the bait because
> he didn't offer himself the bait, did he? He could not have
> endangered himself had Sirius not offered him the means to do so.

Mike:
But I don't care how Severus got the information. Besides, yes he 
could have endangered himself because he *could* have gotten the 
information by some other means, as you so eloquently agree below, 
and which was proven when Harry & Hermione find out and just might 
have been the case for how James & Sirius found out.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181296
> Carol responds:
> <snip> 
> So, suppose that he followed Madam Pomfrey to the Willow and
> learned how to get in that way. In that case, he'd have only his
> own carelessness, overconfidence, and recklessness to blame.
> Curiosity would have killed Severus, and no one would be to blame
> but himself.

Mike:
Thank you for agreeing with my point. 

Severus trip down the tunnel was NOT because he was duped and would 
*probably* have happened anyway had he learned the information from 
a different source. 

And had he not gotten the information from Sirius, he still wouldn't 
have the critical information of the Marauders being Animagi, only 
then we couldn't blame Sirius for withholding it.

So Sirius revealed the Willow's secret most likely with the fervent 
hope that Severus would use it. But the Willow's secret was the 
MEANS, not the MOTIVE, for Severus' trip to werewolf land. The motive 
was all Severus.



> Carol
> *And* that person withheld the crucial information that would
> have kept him from entering ("we're Animagi and you're not, so
> we can survive, but you're dead meat if you go in there").

Mike:
And had Severus found out about the Willow's knot from Madam 
Pomfrey, he STILL woundn't have known about them being Animagi 
and STILL would most likely gone into the tunnel. This makes the
Animagi information moot when discussing culpability. If Severus
was caught robbing a bank, it wouldn't matter if Sirius gave him
the vault combination or whether he found a piece of paper on the
sidewalk with the combination written on it. The reason Severus
robbed the bank was all his. Severus formed the intent to rob the
bank, er, head down the tunnel irrespective of Sirius' intent or
motivation for giving Severus the key to the Willow.

ON A DIFFERENT POINT

> Carol:
> No, because Snape didn't offer Voldemort information to tempt him,
> nor was Voldemort (or anyone else) Snape's intended victim.

Mike:
I don't get this. Snape brought critical information (Dumbledore 
called it information that "concerned his master most deeply" which 
must not have escaped Snape's notice), which Voldemort could NOT have 
gotten any other way. Unlike the Willow info which Severus *could* 
have gotten from a different means, though he didn't. That Snape 
didn't know who Voldemort would hunt down does not mitigate the 
criticality of the information. Snape certainly intended to give the 
information and should have had a reasonable expectation that his 
master would use it. Not knowing "which boy" Voldemort would hunt 
down is not the same as not knowing *that* Voldemort would hunt down 
some boy. <HBP p. 549, US>

The intercedence of the Fidelius and Wormtail as SK mirrors the 
intercedence of James on the Prank; both are a result of a second 
kind of information provided by the original information divulger to 
a third party. The difference being James prevented further damage, 
while Wormtail allowed the plan of action to proceed apace. Of 
course, James intercedence may have produced Sirius' intended 
results, if we believe he only wanted to scare the crap out of Sev.


------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181282

> Potioncat:
> <snipping PoA Prank canon>
> Lupin says the trick could have killed Snape and Black says
> "It served him right."

Mike:
First off, mea culpa for not putting in a couple IMOs in my previous 
post, I definitely shoulda. 

Now this: What "served him right"? That Snape got the piss scared out 
of him because he ended up in mortal danger? Don't you think that was 
Sirius intent, or do you think he really intended to get Sev killed 
or werewolf-ified? I read it as if Sirius just wanted to scare the 
you-know-what out of Severus, and years later he's still glad that it 
worked.


> Potioncat:
> That sounds to me that Black thinks the trick was justified. The
> actual consequences aren't mentioned. What is mentioned is that
> Snape could have been killed.

Mike:
Well yeah, PC, Sirius loved it when a plan came together. ;) I 
suppose a proper reading of canon is that James wasn't in on Sirius' 
plan, but I still wonder. (More on James in a different post) That 
Snape "could have been killed" was paramount in the scare the crap 
outta him factor. But Sirius has long since known that Severus 
*didn't* die, which has to factor into the casualness with which he 
delivers the "served him right" line.



> Carol, hoping that Mike sees the difference between Severus's
> acting on his own initiative and acting on partial information,
> with the key point suppressed 

Mike, hoping Carol sees the difference between means and motive, and 
that getting additional information may have changed Severus' actions 
but would not have changed his motivation for going into the tunnel 
in the first place.


> Carol, wondering where all this blame the victim sentiment is
> coming from and hoping it's not just affection for Sirius Black
> or loathing for Snape

Mike: 
Objective analysis, of course. :D
<Ignore that Snape pinata in the corner>