Snape's Culpability in the Prank (WAS: James and Sirius as Bull

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 181315

 

> Carol responds:
> It can't be *all* Severus's fault that he  took the bait because
> he didn't offer himself the bait, did he? He could  not have
> endangered himself had Sirius not offered him the means to do  so.



> Carol responds:
> <snip> 
> So, suppose that he  followed Madam Pomfrey to the Willow and
> learned how to get in that way.  In that case, he'd have only his
> own carelessness, overconfidence, and  recklessness to blame.
> Curiosity would have killed Severus, and no one  would be to blame
> but himself.

Mike:
Thank you for agreeing  with my point. 

Severus trip down the tunnel was NOT because he was duped  and would 
*probably* have happened anyway had he learned the information  from 
a different source. 

And had he not gotten the information from  Sirius, he still wouldn't 
have the critical information of the Marauders  being Animagi, only 
then we couldn't blame Sirius for withholding  it.

So Sirius revealed the Willow's secret most likely with the fervent  
hope that Severus would use it. But the Willow's secret was the 
MEANS,  not the MOTIVE, for Severus' trip to werewolf land. The motive 
was all  Severus.
 
Julie:
So Sirius had no motive? I very much disagree. SIrius had a  definite motive,
at the very least to scare the pants off Snape, at the most to get him hurt  
or
killed. (Though I do suspect it was the lesser motive.)
 
As for critical information, I think the more critical information Snape  
didn't
have was that Lupin was UNCONFINED in the Shack. Certainly that ties  into
the Marauders being Animagi, thus able to be around an unconfined werewolf 
in their animagi forms. Snape has no reason to suspect the Marauders  of
being Animagi, and every reason to assume Lupin is somehow confined  or
rendered powerless if the Marauders can be in his presence during a  full
moon. That Sirius knew this and deliberately kept it from him is  deliberately
duping Snape, IMO.


> Carol
> *And* that person withheld  the crucial information that would
> have kept him from entering ("we're  Animagi and you're not, so
> we can survive, but you're dead meat if you  go in there").

Mike:
And had Severus found out about the Willow's knot  from Madam 
Pomfrey, he STILL woundn't have known about them being Animagi  
and STILL would most likely gone into the tunnel. This makes the
Animagi  information moot when discussing culpability. If Severus
was caught robbing a  bank, it wouldn't matter if Sirius gave him
the vault combination or whether  he found a piece of paper on the
sidewalk with the combination written on it.  The reason Severus
robbed the bank was all his. Severus formed the intent to  rob the
bank, er, head down the tunnel irrespective of Sirius' intent  or
motivation for giving Severus the key to the Willow.
 
Julie:
I don't really see the relevance of Snape's possible actions in a  possible
scenario. The real scenario is that Sirius gave him the information with  the
deliberate intent that Snape would use it and suffer for it. Was it  stupid 
of 
Snape to use the information without considering the source? Certainly. 
Does that make Sirius's action less unworthy and wrong? Not in my  opinion.

ON A DIFFERENT POINT

> Carol:
> No, because  Snape didn't offer Voldemort information to tempt him,
> nor was Voldemort  (or anyone else) Snape's intended victim.

Mike:
I don't get this.  Snape brought critical information (Dumbledore 
called it information that  "concerned his master most deeply" which 
must not have escaped Snape's  notice), which Voldemort could NOT have 
gotten any other way. Unlike the  Willow info which Severus *could* 
have gotten from a different means, though  he didn't. That Snape 
didn't know who Voldemort would hunt down does not  mitigate the 
criticality of the information. Snape certainly intended to  give the 
information and should have had a reasonable expectation that his  
master would use it. Not knowing "which boy" Voldemort would hunt 
down  is not the same as not knowing *that* Voldemort would hunt down 
some boy.  <HBP p. 549, US>
 
Julie:
Personally, I don't see how it matters if either Voldemort or  Snape could
have gotten their respective knowledge in a different way. It's about what 
actually happened in both cases. And I completely agree that Snape  had
a reasonable expectation that Voldemort would use the information to  hurt
others. Equally, I think Sirius also had a reasonable  expectation that Snape
would use that information to his own detriment, unwittingly (as I  don't see
any reason Snape would go into the Shrieking Shack expecting to meet
an unconfined werewolf which he couldn't hope to subdue). Malicious  intent
is malicious intent, though obviously these were cases of two very  different 
degrees of malice (assuming Sirius expected Snape to  be scared for his
life but not actually in danger of dying).   

Mike:
The intercedence of the Fidelius and Wormtail as SK mirrors  the 
intercedence of James on the Prank; both are a result of a second  
kind of information provided by the original information divulger to 
a  third party. The difference being James prevented further damage, 
while  Wormtail allowed the plan of action to proceed apace. Of 
course, James  intercedence may have produced Sirius' intended 
results, if we believe he  only wanted to scare the crap out of Sev.
 
Julie:
Hmm. James acted for good, and Wormtail acted for evil. Again it's a
matter of intent, which to me is the most important consideration  (and
why I see Wormtail as more culpable in the deaths of the Potters than
Snape, whose intent changed when he tried to undo his actions). 
 
AFAWK with the Prank, Sirius's intent was to see Snape scared out
of his pants/robe (without any real evidence he expected Snape to  be
turned or even killed), while Snape's intent was to prove a theory  that
might get his enemies expelled (with no evidence from any quarter  that
he had any intent or expectation of confronting a werewolf, let alone  taking
it down with "Dark Arts" or anything else). That's how it stands for  me,
anyway.
 
Julie, who sees Sirius as acting quite badly and Snape acting quite 
stupidly in this incident, both proving as someone mentioned earlier  that
teenage boys have very little impulse control  ;-)




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