House-Elves yet again

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 181378

> a_svirn:
>  However, in that case the bonding enchantment is no more a part of
> elves' nature, than the magical contract was a part of Harry's 
nature
> in GoF. 
> 
> Carol:
> The thing is, it *has become* part of their nature. You give any Elf
> clothes and he's "free" whether he wants to be or not. 

a_svirn:
Thing is, it cannot become anything of the sort. It could of course 
become their *second* nature, as the saying goes. In other words, 
their habit. In effect, you are saying that they have gotten used to 
being slaves. Well, so they have, poor things. 

> Carol:
They don't really care who owns them as long as they're not
> abused. 

a_svirn:
Not true, is it? Harry did not abuse Kreacher in OotP and HBP, did 
he? 

> Carol:
The prospect of being owned by DES, however, seems to scare
> them. Perhaps Kreacher, still bound to a master and loyal to him
> (though he loves Regulus more) persuaded them through recounting his
> experience with Voldemort in a way that the disgraced and eccentric
> "Free Elf" Dobby could never do.

a_svirn:
Kreacher's persuasion wouldn't be of any use for them as long as they 
are bound. 

> > 
> Carol earlier:
> > And since the Elves didn't *want* clothes, they became bound, over
> time, to particular families. I'm oversimplifying, but I do think 
that
> the enchantment (which term, BTW, seems to be used on this list
> without being part of canon) is part and parcel of their magical 
nature.
> > 
> > a_svirn:
> > This is the term used by Dumbledore. He said that elves are bound 
to
> wizards by enchantments of their own kind. Merlin knows what he 
meant
> > by "their own kind", perhaps that the enchantment originated from
> > elves' magic rather than wizarding magic.
> 
> Carol:
> 
> It would help if you supplied the exact quote for us to analyze.

a_svirn:
"He <Kreacher – a_svirn> was bound by the enchantments of his own 
kind, which is to say that he could not disobey a direct order from 
his master, Sirius." OotP, p. 732

> 
> a_svirn:
> > However, the word enchantment is not really all that ambiguous. 
One
> cannot be born with enchantments as part of one's make-up.
> Enchantments are supposed to be performed. They also supposed to be
> leaned in order to be performed. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> Not necessarily. The accidental magic performed by Wizard children 
is
> an enchantment, is it not, even though no spell is performed? 

a_svirn:
Accidental magic is accidental magic. It is *not* charms, 
enchantments, hexes, jinxes etc. – all those things that have to be 
learned and performed intentionally. That's how the Ministry knew 
that the Hover Charm, for instance, wasn't accidental – because it 
was a concrete charm. And it certainly defies belief that the bonding 
enchantment could be accidental. 

> Carol:
And
> House-Elves don't seem to use incantations; they just snap their
> fingers or whatever and the Hover Charm or whatever is performed.
> House-Elves don't go to school. They seem to perform their magic,
> including House-cleaning, naturally. They're born with it just as
> Wizards are, but unlike Wizards, they don't have to learn how to use
> it and control it, as far as we know. No schools, no wands, no 
spells
> to learn. They just do it.

a_svirn:
Well, Dumbledore also just waved his wand. And Snape made do without 
a wand at times. They had to learn their respective skills, however. 
Dobby certainly had to learn the Hover Charm, in order to perform it. 
If it was something instinctive the Ministry could not have detected 
it. And if they did, they would have thought it accidental. 

 
> Carol:
> At any rate, House-Elves can't predate houses. and clothing existed
> before houses. So both cultural artifacts were in existence at the
> time the first House-Elf became bound, probably through his own 
will,
> to serve a Wizard. 

a_svirn:
That's actually by no means an axiom. Domestic pests, for instance, 
are called domestic because they like to live in human dwellings. 
That does not mean that human houses predate, say, cockroaches. Not 
that it matters – either way houses are not part of cockroaches' or 
even human nature. Though I concede that living in them has become a 
second nature for both. Well, mostly.  

> Carol:
> BTW, I looked up "enchantment," which gave me a cross-reference to
> "enchant," for which the chief definition is "to influence by or as 
if
> by charms and incantation." "By or as if by" allows the possibility
> that no spell (incantation) was performed.

a_svirn:
It is not just *allow* this possibility. It actually signals 
figurative usage. Like in "All the men were enchanted by her." As if 
by charms, but in actuality by her divine beauty. 

> Carol:
 Again, I suggest the
> analogy of bowing (a human action) as part of the nature of
> Hippogriffs. Who *enchanted* them to behave this way? Probably no 
one.
> This humanlike action is part of their *nature*, an inborn trait of
> all Hippogriffs.

a_svirn:
We don't know it.  We don't even know if hyppogriffs are wild beasts 
or not. Perhaps not – after all they were kept in a sort of a 
paddock. It may be that they are *trained* to bow. Also even wild 
animals have certain rituals. 
> 

> Carol:
> At any rate, this "problem" of a population of unhappy, abused
> House-Elves "enslaved" to masters they don't want to serve appears 
to
> exist solely in the imagination of certain readers.

a_svirn:
And certain other readers manage to ignore all the evidence to the 
contrary. Here is another quote for you: "`Kreacher is what he has 
been made by wizards, Harry', said Dumbledore. `Yes, he is to be 
pitied. His existence has been as miserable as your friend's Dobby's. 
He was forced to Sirius's bidding because Sirius was the last of the 
family to which he was enslaved, but he felt no loyalty for him." 
OotP pp. 733-34.  

As you see, the word *enslaved* is used and without even the inverted 
commas to signal the unusual usage. Dumbledore corroborates Dobby's 
statement. Oh, and of course Rowling herself says the same thing, but 
I know you won't allow this minor detail to influence your judgement. 

> Carol:
> The Hogwarts House-Elves *did* choose their masters. 

a_svirn:
So what? Do we know that Hogwarts elves are bound? If they are not, 
than there is nothing to argue about. 

a_svirn.