Mistakes made in Deathly Hallows? The Elder Wand

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 181448

--- , "bdclark0423" <bdclark0423 at ...> wrote:
>
> Mistakes made in Deathly Hallows?
> 
> The Elder Wand:  a wand that must always win duels for its 
> owner.
> 
> Dumbledore recounts to Harry the events with Grindelwald and
> this seems contradiction to what describes the Elder Wand: 
> ...  I (Dumbledore) won the duel. I won the wand.
> 
> So if the Elder Wand must always win duels for its owner, 
> how did Grindelwald lose the wand to DD?
> 
> The only clear mention of a duel where elder wand is 
> actually used is when V uses it against Harry, ...
> 
> So yes, elder wand must always win duels for its owner. But
> we see the owner can change without the elder wand being used
> in the actual duel.
> 
> Elder wand changes allegiance to Harry when Malfoy's actual 
> wand was 'won' ... without the elder wand ever being in 
> either one's possession...
> 
> There's no details on how DD actually gains allegiance of 
> elder wand other than DD defeated Grindelwald in a duel, ...
> 
> bdclark0423


bboyminn:

This whole wand thing is complicated by knowledge of the
wand coming from many sources, some real, some not. There is
the Wand of legend and myth, the Wand of rumorous  
speculation, and the Wand of history.

The Legend of The Three Brothers is just that - legend and
myth, a metaphor for the tale of the three real brothers
and the lessons they learned. 

The legend says the holder of the wand can't be defeated,
but we see from history that, directly or indirectly, every
holder of the wand has been defeated and usually in a very
short time. So, clearly the holder of the wand, whether
true Master or not, CAN be defeated. 

Further in the legend, the 'wand' brother did not defeat
Death, he only outwitted him in one isolated instance. 

Further note there is one additional instance of the Wand
dueling another, when Dumbledore and Voldemort duel at
the Ministry of Magic, presumably Dumbledore was using the
Elder Wand. And, he was confident, and cast very powerful
spell against an overwhelming foe. though, in that case, I 
would say, no clear winner.

As far as the duel between Grindelwald and Dumbledore in
which Dumbledore won the wand. Again, it's not all about
the Wand. The greatest most powerful wand in the world in 
the hands of an idiot is not going to be as powerful as 
a good wand in the hands of a brilliant wizard. 

It is possible that Dumbledore outsmarted Grindelwald rather
than out dueled him. That is essentially what Harry did.
Harry relied on knowledge that Voldemort didn't have or
understand. Dumbledore may have had intimate knowledge of
Grindelwald. He may have known his magical and psychological
weaknesses and may have preyed on those, thereby causing
Grindelwald to make a mistake that lead to his downfall. 

As to transfer of the Wand, that is equally tricky. You can
transfer possession without tranferring ownership or 
allegiance. But consider this, many times in its history
the Wand must have moved from the possession of one wizard
to another, but not under the right circumstances. Yet, at
some point the non-Master owner of the wand was defeated 
and the wand transfer it allegiance somehow to the new
wizard. That complicates thing immensely in my mind.

If you took the wand by stealth or trickery as Grindelwald
did, can we assume the allegiance does not transfer to you?
But then if you are defeated, does the allegiance remain
with the original wizard, or is it transferred to the one
who defeated you?

If the Master/owner of the wand dies while not in possession
of the wand, does that mean the allegiance is up for grabs, 
or does it as Dumbledore and Harry suspect, die with the
Master/owner? I don't think so. In all it's history, the
wand had to change hands by irregular means, means that
did not also transfer Mastership. Yet, as some point some
wizard was able to reassert Mastership over the wand. It
must have continued to have been transferred by some means
otherwise Dumbledore could not have ended up as its Master.
That is assuming Dumbledore actually was its Master.

Further, we and Harry are only speculating that Harry was
the Master of the Wand. I'm mean the concept server its
purpose, it psyched Voldemort out. But we only know that
Harry believed himself the Master, we don't really know
it was true. Though his ability to later use the Wand to
heal his old Wand indicated that, Master or not, the Wand
was willing to bow to and exert its power to Harry will. 

Keep in mind that any wizard can use The Wand, but like 
any wand, how well it works depends on the natural connection
between user and wand. Nearly everyone has effectively used
someone elses wand in the series without problem. Now the
wands Harry and Hermione 'borrowed' in DH, were probably 
not compatible with them even under the best of circumstance.
It is possible, that rather than being the Master of the 
Wand, Harry and the Wand just had a natural harmony. 

The whole process is exceptionally complex, and even 
Ollivander admits he doesn't full understand it. Keep in
mind that Ollivander's family has been making wand since
about 785BC. I think he might be considered an expert,
yet he doesn't full grasp the transfer of allegiance of
wands and all its secondary implications.

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn