A James Rant - Who was This Guy?

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 181462

> Pippin:
> First of all, I think the canon is a bit different than you 
remember:
> --
> Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside
> down for the fun of it...not unless they really loathed 
them...Perhaps
> Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it... (OOP ch 29)
> --
> "Except perhaps  to Draco, or somebody who deserved it " implies 
that 
> Draco deserving it is not a given, which hardly translates to 
perfectly
> okay. 

Magpie:
I don't understand how I'm misremembering. He couldn't imagine the 
twins dangling somebody upside down for the fun of it, not unless 
they really loathed them or perhaps Malfoy or somebody else who 
really deserved it. Iow, Harry can imagine the twins doing this thing 
under certain circumstances. (Circumstances that I think as far as 
James is concerned he's also fulfilled, though Harry's not so sure.) 
I didn't mean to imply that Draco deserving it was not a given (of 
course it's a given--he's Draco). I was saying that Harry felt that 
this type of thing would be very different and understandable--and he 
could see the twins doing it--if the person "deserved it" or they 
really loathed him. 

I know there are times in canon where bullying as held up as a 
horrible thing--I just don't think it goes that deep. She makes 
racism a big bad too when the bad guys do it, but that doesn't mean 
the good guys ever consider their own actions or words as potentially 
being bigoted.

Pippin:> 
> Secondly, he does apply it to himself. "For nearly five years the 
thought
> of his father had been a source of comfort, of inspiration. Whenever
> someone had told him he was like James he had glowed with pride
> inside. And now...he felt cold and miserable at the thought of him."

Magpie:
That's not what I meant he ought to apply to himself. I meant Harry 
thinking about his own behavior somewhere, not James'. A statement 
about accepting bullying as a flaw in someone you look up to is 
obviously a little different than a statement about just how bad 
bullying is, or showing a good kid realizing he's done it and truly 
regretting his actions.

> Pippin:
> Harry doesn't improve by self-reflection. He improves by screwing 
up.
> 
> He responds to Sirius's death, and to Dumbledore's, by trying to 
cruciate
> the guilty party. He doesn't understand what Bella tries to tell 
him about
> the difference between righteous anger and sadism -- not until he 
> successfully performs the curse. > 
> But after Fred's death,  even though he's  filled with the desire 
for "the 
> satisfaction of revenge, he, too, wanted to fight, to punish them, 
the 
> people who had killed Fred" -- he is able to channel his energy 
towards 
> better ends: restraining Ron and finding Voldemort.> Rowling shows -
- not tells-- that Harry understands something he didn't 
> understand before. 

Magpie:
Harry doesn't improve, period. (And there seems little call for him 
to in canon, imo.) You can't improve without some self-reflection, 
imo, even if you don't formally think of it as such. Screwing up 
doesn't do anything if you don't think about and understand what you 
did wrong. I don't see any connection between Harry performing his 
Crucio and learning from it--his using it is fine. He doesn't regret 
it (and says so) or think about it twice. I don't have the canon in 
front of me but from what you're describing it doesn't sound like 
there's any connection to what you're talking about here. Why would 
restraining Ron show any growth on Harry's part? He would have done 
that anyway. Ron's vengeful impulses aren't his own. Doesn't Harry 
restrain somebody at one point before rushing into a fight himself? 
(I could be misremembering that.)

> Pippin:
> Harry didn't do permanent damage to anyone only because
> of Snape's timely intervention.  I think canon makes it clear that 
> bullying is harmful in unpredictable ways and so, a bad thing, even
> when it doesn't feel wrong.

Magpie:
Lots of things in canon are harmful in unpredictable ways, but I 
don't think this sums up what's said about bullying. Bullying is 
often very much shown as a bad thing--the story starts with poor 
Harry being the victim of terrible bullies. The characters who are 
designated as official bullies are always shown as being in the wrong.

But when it comes to those good kids being bullies I think the book 
gets a little mushier. And when it comes to Harry doing something 
that somebody might describe as bullying I think the author would be 
simply defensive. 

Lily wouldn't go out with James while he was being the bad kind of 
bully, but he didn't have to regret the past any more than Harry did 
imo--that's what people thought the Prank was dramatizing, but it 
wasn't. I doubt he thought much about Snape--I don't see anybody 
thinking of the Prank as something Snape was pushed into by James' 
bullying. He doesn't regret it, his friends don't much regret it and 
they all still think Snape's making too much of it. They were idiots 
at 15, that explains it.

I think bullying is a common part of human behavior. Most people have 
probably done it at one time. It's especially common during 
adolescence. It's fine for Harry to learn to love his father as a guy 
who could be a jerk rather than as an idealized icon. But I don't 
think you can show somebody truly growing to understand bullying is 
wrong--or especially to show a character changing so we can learn 
from him/her--without the self-reflection you claim Harry doesn't 
learn from imo. "I was an idiot then" isn't realizing you were wrong, 
it's saying it's normal. Harry never has a moment of regret for 
hexing people like Filch in the halls or casting a Crucio, or really 
any of his behavior towards other people that I can call to mind. The 
two times he most seriously screws up still don't get him to the 
point of causing that kind of character development in that area. He 
seems pretty regret-free.

As an aside, it seems to me that the one character in canon who could 
have gone through something like a serious self-reflection about 
bullying is Draco Malfoy, but that isn't canon, just speculation 
about the self-reflection he might have had that wasn't on the page. 
Harry's screw-ups are to my eyes mostly justified, easily forgiven 
(without his asking) and not needing to be dwelt on. James' bullying 
is something Harry should accept about him and forgive because he 
shouldn't expect him to be perfect. And that's fine and in keeping 
with things that Harry struggles with throughout the series, but not 
not saying much of note about bullying for our pov character.

I don't think canon is always approving of bullying, no. Not at all. 
Sometimes the bully is the bad guy because he's the bully. But I 
don't think James created Snape through his bullying, and I think the 
Prank now more than ever is about Snape being jealous and hating 
James more than trying to stop James' bullying, judging by what we 
(and Lily the wonderful) see. If JKR hadn't had Peter hang around 
James for his bullying I think she'd have had him hang around him 
because he was popular and powerful. 

I'm still left with the impression that whatever statements JKR would 
make about bullying IRL, her hero's journey doesn't include him 
regretting any of his own worse moments--in fact, at times what she 
does instead is this clever thing where she has Harry be in danger of 
having to really regret one of his screw ups and then instead she has 
some other person start harassing him so that Harry becomes the 
victim. Far from showing Harry learning from his screw ups, she has 
somebody come in and turn it into a totally different situation where 
Harry's the victim. I can't help but have the impression of the books 
mostly justfying Harry throughout. I far more recognize the kind of 
growth that you described above, where Harry deals with other 
peoples' flaws.

-m