Wand Lore / Luna / Alchemy

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 181597

WAND LORE

Steve bboymin wrote in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181448>:

<< If you took the wand by stealth or trickery as Grindelwald did, can 
we assume the allegiance does not transfer to you? >>

I suppose Grindelwald feared that might be the case, causing him to
wait around after stealing the Wand until Gregorovitch came to
investigate the noise so he could Stun Gregorovitch, assuming that
Stunning a wizard is defeating him, and the wand only has to pass by
defeat; it doesn't have to pass by murder. (How had Gregorovitch
gotten the Wand?)

The Elder Wand's ownership allegedly passed from Dumbledore to Draco 
when Draco Disarmed Dumbledore (HBP, on the tower under the Dark Mark) 
by taking him by surprise. I think it's reasonable that Disarming
one's opponent in such a way that he never gets his wand back counts
as defeating him, but in that case, the Elder Wand's owner was
defeated with the Elder Wand in his very hand.

If Stunning and Disarming count as defeats, why wouldn't stealth or 
trickery count as defeats? (Maybe Gregorovitch won it in a card game.)

Zara wrote in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181477>:

<< It is my opinion that the very act of disarming a wizard is a
defeat of that wizard. Draco did not need to pick up the wand to have
already won its loyalty, he did when he removed it from Dumbledore's
possession.

Likewise Harry defeated Draco by disarming him (using brute physical
force, but still, disarming him). He also did not take physical
possession of the Elder Wand at the time, but it transferred its
allegiance nonetheless because it recognized a defeat of its former
master Draco, by Harry. >>

Nitpick: in my opinion, because Draco never touched the Elder Wand,
the Wand did not know him and therefore was not loyal to him. Instead,
it was loyal to the master of the hawthorne wand which had defeated it.  

Thus, the Elder Wand did not transfer its loyalty from Draco to Harry; 
rather, it recognized Harry as the master of the hawthorne wand. Harry 
had become master of the hawthorne wand by taking it from Draco by 
non-magical force. This only affected the Elder Wand because Harry was 
holding the hawthorne wand when the Elder Wand was fired at him.
Otherwise the Elder Wand wouldn't have recognized him.

Harry's holly wand recognized that Lucius's wand was being wielded by
LV, a known enemy. I don't think that means that wands always
recognize the wielder of their opposing wand. I think this is a
special case because the brother wands had absorbed some of each
other's essence, and maybe even the wielders' essence, during the
golden cage portion of the graveyard fight.

Hi to hp_fan_2008, who said the same as my first two paragraphs, in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181542>:

<< My theory is that the wand recognized Hary as the owner of the wand
which was used to disarm Dumbledore. It could have recognized the fact
when Voldemort tried to murder Harry in the Forest. This would explain
why the Cruciatus Curse didn't work on Harry. >>

Zara wrote in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181504>:

<< Harry claims that because Snape was knowingly doing Dumbledore's 
will, because he and Dumbledore had made an agreement months before, 
Snape's killing would not constitute a defeat. Instead, what Harry 
claims would have happened, is that the wand's power would have died 
with Dumbledore, and no one could ever have been its master again. >>

In previous discussions, some listie pointed out that it was foolish
of DD not to realise that he was setting Snape up to be killed by LV
in LV's attempt to become master of the Elder Wand. If DD can lie
after he's dead (in the 'King's Cross' chapter), maybe he did realise it.

LUNA

Jayne wrote in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181497>:

<< Luna starts off as being perceived as loony and over the last three
books, she also becomes more confident and gets more respect from
others and also is a loyal friend to Harry and co.

I would have loved a hint that they would get together eventually. We
know of course that Neville becomes a Prof of Herbology, but nothing
is mentioned about what happens to Luna. >>

Rowling wants her to become a naturalist and go around the world 
searching for all those creatures her father believes in, altho' she 
never does find a Crumpled-Horn Snorkak (are there other kinds of 
Snorkak?).

Before DH, Rowling said there couldn't be a Neville/Luna ship because
he would be too disturbed by her wilder flights of fantasy. After DH,
first she said Neville and Luna would marry; later she said that
Neville married Hannah Abbot, who had become proprietor of The Leaky
Cauldron, and therefore lived there, and that Luna became a naturalist
and married another naturalist, Rolf Scamander, grandson of Newt
Scamander, author of FABULOUS BEASTS AND WHERe TO FIND THEM. Nothing
about Dean in DH seeming to be attracted to Luna.

(Some listies complain about Neville's daily commute from Charing
Cross Road to Hogwarts, but he could Apparate from his front door to
the school entrance. Or he could Floo from his fireplace to some
public fireplace in Hogsmead and walk to the school from there. We
never read anything about people arriving at The Three Broomsticks by
Floo, so I guess the public fireplace was either in the Post Office
(altho' Hermione didn't mention it when she was telling Harry of all
the owls waiting there) or the train station.)

When we met Luna, I was *sure* she was going to die (some kind of 
heroically) in the series, because she was so spiritually enlightened 
(calm and compassionate) at such a young age. She was as spiritual as 
Albus appeared to be, but he'd had a century to learn it.

I also hoped her silver eyes meant she was related to Ollivander, such 
as his granddaughter or great-granddaughter, altho' if she called him 
'Grandpa' in the dungeon, that wouldn't have been as cute calling him 
'Mr. Ollivander', and that she had comforted him in that awful place 
wouldn't have been so striking a sign of her personality.

Because I would rather that Luna became a wandmaker than a naturalist.
I think it would be a good use of her spiritual enlightenment - her 
understanding of people would help her find them the right wand and
give them some gentle good advice along with their new wand. I like to
think she would understand the wand materials as well as she
understands people. Maybe she could make wands that brought out the
good in their wielders as well as being powerful.

Liz P wrote in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181549>:

<< Luna wound up being one of my favorite characters, a very wise
soul. She was lesson in her own right. People who are considered
"strange" are mainly over looked and written off. To me it was one of
Ginny's few redeeming qualities that she befriended her. >>

This is one of those forbidden 'I agree' posts. All I can add is that
if fellow students hadn't picked on Luna, she wouldn't have had the
chance to show her calmness and forgiveness.

At first (PS/SS), the wizarding world was a refuge for the people who
were considered 'strange' in the Muggle world. A place where children
who didn't fit in in the Muggle world (because of having magical
powers or being excessively intelligent at school or being gay or
whatever) did fit in, because the people there were like them. Pretty
soon, even before OoP and we met Luna, it became clear that the
wizarding world had its own bullies and picked-on oddballs. 

ALCHEMY

Flaviaflav wrote in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181525>:

<< In Deathly Hallows we also had the death of *Rufus* Scrimgeour. >>

And Goddlefrood replied in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181532>:

<< Besides, Scrimgeour was a relatively minor character first
mentioned in OotP. The theories based on alchemy to predict death all
(pre-DH) looked at major characters, of whom Scrimgeour was not one.>>

To which Goddlefrood added in 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/181538>:

<< The real reason - I had to convince myself that Hagrid wouldn't die 
pre-DH, and it worked. >>

I think it possible that Rowling originally planned for Hagrid to die
in DH (in that battle scene where it *looks* as if he is consumed by
the spiders) but she couldn't stand to kill him because she liked him
so much. (So she gave him a reprieve, like Arthur in book 5.)

If she had named him Rubeus to fit the three stage of alchemy death 
prediction process, but realised pre-OoP that she couldn't stand to
kill him, she might have deliberately named a minor character
introduced in OoP whom she knew would be killed in DH 'Rufus' as a
replacement.