Wand Lore / Luna / Alchemy

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 181635

> Catlady wrote:
> > 
> > In previous discussions, some listie pointed out that it was foolish
> of DD not to realise that he was setting Snape up to be killed by LV
> in LV's attempt to become master of the Elder Wand. If DD can lie
> after he's dead (in the 'King's Cross' chapter), maybe he did realise it.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> I don't think that JKR would have DD lie when she's tying up the loose
> ends of the plot. What would be the point and how could the reader
> know? I think we're supposed to take Dead!DD, who, after all, has
> nothing more to hide, at his word. He's telling Harry *everything* (at
> least, everything as JKR defines that word). And he says that Snape
> died because of a flaw in the plan.

Montavilla47:
I may have been one of the listies to point this out, since it seems
absurdly short-sighted not to consider the possibility that Voldemort
would seek the Elder Wand and trace it to Snape.

Carol:
> Just how DD intended for Snape to avoid being killed when LV
> discovered that he was the supposed master of the Elder Wand is
> unclear, but he may have been counting on timing--Harry finding and
> destroying the Horcruxes before LV solved the mystery of the Elder
> Wand, obtained it, and realized why it wasn't working for him (which,
> BTW, is absurd--it worked just fine).

Montavilla47:
Certainly, it took Harry a long time to find those darn Horcruxes.
However, it took Dumbledore even longer.  If he had been searching
since the diary dropped into his lap, it took him four years to locate
two Horcruxes.  (Or one-and-a-half.)

Tedious as Harry's quest was, he did manage to find two-and-a-
half Horcruxes within a year.  Perhaps it was overconfidence on 
Dumbledore's part that he never thought to look for a Horcrux within
Hogwarts itself.  Seems very silly, though, that Dumbledore didn't
use his connections to search the vaults of Voldemort's most
zealous supporters.

Carol:
> Several things happened, aside from Draco's Expelliarmus, that
> living!DD could not have anticipated and Portrait!DD probably didn't
> know about. First, Lucius Malfoy's wand was destroyed when Harry's
> wand went off of its own accord, causing Voldemort to torture
> Ollivander for more information and sending him to hunt for the Elder
> Wand. Unless Snape knew what had happened, and I don't think he did, I
> don't see how Portrait!DD could have known about it. (The kids don't
> talk about it in front of Phineas Nigellus, either.) 

Montavilla47:
I think Snape might have noticed Lucius walking around without a wand, 
or Voldemort seething about the incident and *not* commandeering
anyone else's wand.  

Carol:
>Nor could he have
> anticipated or known about Harry's dropping the portrait of
> Grindelwald at Bathilda's house, which eventually tipped off Voldemort
> as to the golden-haired thief's identity. Had it not been for those
> two unexpected incidents, Voldemort might never have gone off to hunt
> for the wand, or, if he did, he might have been stymied by the
> identity of the thief.

Montavilla47:
Which makes sense unless you consider that Grindelwald was
the greatest dark lord before Voldemort, an international baddie,
and his image should have been quite familiar.  The photograph
was taken when he was 17 or 18 and he was probably older when
he stole the wand--thus even closer to what he'd look like as
an adult.  

It was Voldemort who had the extreme makeover as he became
a dark lord and the mysterious origins.  Not Grindelwald.  Did
Voldemort never pick up a biography of the guy he was 
succeeding?

Carol:
>As it was, he had time to obtain the wand and,
> ostensibly, time to realize that it wasn't working for him (even
> though it killed a lot of people and conjured Nagini's bubble; it
> didn't really stop being effective until Harry's willing
> self-sacrifice, which occurred after Snape's death--and because of
> Snape's message.)

Montavilla47:
Incidently, Snape chose to sacrifice himself rather than blow
his cover.  I wonder if that might have had something to do with
subsequent ineffectiveness of the wand?  Maybe Snape created a
little blood protection of his own?  (Not that anyone there was
related to him--but he was Hogwarts' "protector.")


Carol:
> DD also set up a possible counter-measure by giving Harry the option
> of going after the Elder Wand himself, which, of course, would have
> prevented Snape's death, whatever the consequences for Harry. (Someone
> else can explore that if they're interested.)

Montavilla47:
A smarter counter-measure might have been to put a request in his 
will to snap his wand (as was done for Odo).  Or to will it to one of the
Order members and then leave a note for them to go into hiding 
immediately.

And, really, what was the point of wanting Snape to have the wand
if it didn't have any power?  Or if he didn't leave any instructions about
that?  Or tell Snape when he became a portrait?  

Was the plan for Snape to actually defeat DD and get the power of 
the wand, which might help him stay alive in case Voldemort did 
try to kill him?  See, that might be a good plan.

And it would mean that it did get messed up when Draco 
disarmed Dumbledore, and it would explain why Portrait!Dumbledore
doesn't tell Snape to go claim the wand.  

And all that really requires is for Harry to out and out lie about
what Dumbledore's plan really was.  Which, I suppose, could 
be the case, since what Harry says doesn't make sense.

Carol:
> It would have been wise, however, for Portrait!DD to trust McGonagall
> with the secret of Snape's loyalties. Had Snape not been "sacked," he
> might have been able to talk to Harry in McGonagall's presence, asking
> him about the snake and then telling him about DD's message, if
> necessary via a Pensieve visit in McGonagall's presence. (I really
> don't know how DD expected Snape to deliver the message, but he
> couldn't have anticipated memories released from the mind of a dying
> Snape.)

Montavilla47:
Yes, that would have made a lot of sense.  Once Snape was installed
as the Headmaster, McGonagall was pretty safe from Voldemort and
unlikely to hauled in for questioning.  I'm sure she could have pulled
off the deception in front of the Carrows.   They don't seem very
bright.


> 
> Carol, who thinks that JKR's plot needs, not Dumbledore's plan,
> resulted in Snape's dying when (and how) he did

Montavilla47,
Who agrees, but indulges in blaming Dumbledore when she's
feeling cranky.