Wand Lore / Luna / Alchemy

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 181638

a_svirn:
> Ah, but it is the Dead Dumbledore *inside Harry's head*. He didn't 
> tell Harry anything Harry hadn't already known. And naturally Harry 
> would prefer to think it was merely a flaw in the plan, rather than 
> deliberate sacrifice of one of Dumbledore's chess pieces. 
> 
Carol responds:
As Dead!Dumbledore tells Harry, Just because it's happening inside
your head doesn't mean it isn't true. JKR is giving us the usual
Dumbledore wrap-up, and I see no reason not to trust the information
(even though we still have questions about exactly what DD intended
and exactly how the wand worked, among others). I really don't think
that DD planned Snape's death, primarily because Snape had to be alive
to inform Harry that he had a soul bit in his scar and had to
sacrifice himself. A dead man can't do that, and there was no way to
anticipate his particular method of dying and transferring the
memories to Harry, who just happened to be there. Obviously, DD
expected a living snape to communicate with harry in some other way.

Carol earlier:
> > Also, DD was counting on Snape not only to take over as headmaster 
> of Hogwarts and protect the students, aiding Harry along the way
with details like the Sword of Gryffindor, but he also needed him to
deliver that last message to Harry when Voldemort started protecting
Nagini. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> Then again, those two aims are somewhat conflicting, aren't they? To 
> help Harry Snape had to maintain his position as a headmaster, and to 
> do so he had to be exactly the headmaster Voldemort needed. He gave 
> the Carrows free reign in Hogwarts, at all events. Granted, he did 
> seem to have saved Ginny and Co. (Though that was, after all in his 
> best interests, since otherwise one or both of the Carrows would have 
> interrogated her.)


Carol again:
I don't see a conflict. Snape is posing as a loyal DE so he can be
appointed headmaster and maintain that position, meanwhile tricking
Bellatrix into thinking that he's sending her the real Sword of
Gryffindor, which he actually delivers to Harry a bit later. If a
loyal DE were headmaster, McGonagall, Flitwick, and the other
experienced teachers would be sent to Azkaban and replaced by DEs. So
Snape is retaining competent staff members and turning a blind eye to
any efforts on their part to restrain or undermine the Carrows (he
knows what went on under Umbridge and no doubt expects the same thing
under him). We see only one of his detentions, but he may have sent
more kids than Ginny, Neville, and Luna to Hagrid. Just doing that
enables the remaining three members of Harry's little gang to
communicate with Hagrid. While the Carrows are in charge of detentions
and their subjects are required, matters that Snape can do nothing
about, he does have the authority to make them teach at the level of
the students, and I doubt that any students under NEWT level are being
taught the Unforgiveable Curses. (We only hear of Crabbe and Goyle
actually casting them on other students.) The trains run as usual
(it's not Snape's fault that DEs seized Luna on Platform 9 3/4), meals
and other House-Elf services are provided as usual, Filch and Mrs.
Norris and Peeves act as they always do, and, except for DADA (which
has never been adequately taught except in Harry's third and sixth
years) and Muggle Studies, the kids are being taught by the usual
group of teachers, at least some of them highly competent. McGonagall
is prowling the halls even when she's not on duty, and Snape has
(deliberately?) encouraged rebellion by the remnant of the DA by
reposting Umbridge's rule against student organizations. I almost
forgot to mention that Snape forbade Ginny from going to Hogsmeade,
knowing she'd be in danger there, and he closed up all the secret
passageways (except the one from the ROR to the Hog's Head) so that
DEs can't get in and students can't sneak out to Hogsmeade, where
they'd be in danger.

Conditions may be bad at Hogwarts thanks to the Carrows, but there are
only two of them (and they're both pretty stupid). Imagine how much
worse it would be if Travers or Yaxley were headmaster and brought in
their DE friends to "teach" all the subjects. Macnair for COMC, for
example, and Bellatrix for Transfiguration. IMO, Snape does the best
he can under very difficult conditions. Under a loyal DE, they would
have been much worse. (And, BTW, I don't think that the Carrows have
"free rein" (note spelling). I think they're kept in check by
McGonagall (and possibly, subtly, by Snape himself; Snape, being
Snape, would be concerned about the students being prepared for their
OWLs and NEWTs). If they truly had free rein, they'd be attacking the
other teachers and controlling the curriculum, which clearly is not
happening. (And even Amycus Carrow has managed to teach something
useful actually related to DADA; Crabbe, Goyle, and Draco can all cast
Disillusionment Charms, which must mean that all the seventh years
have been taught that particular spell.) 
> 
Carol earlier:
> He could not have expected Snape to be killed at that point because
he needed Snape to be alive to deliver the message. And, of course, he
could not have anticipated Snape's being bitten by Nagini in Harry's
presence, which enabled Snape to deliver the message as he could not
have done if he'd been AK'd.
> 
> a_svirn:
> That part of the plan doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Suppose 
> Snape confronted Harry and told him about Dumbledore instructions. 
> Would Harry believe one single word of it? Would he even listen to 
> Dumbledore's murderer? I should think he'd AK him without further 
> ado. And tell afterwards that he really meant it. And no one would 
> blame him, not even Snape, for how could he (or anyone else) be sure 
> about Snape loyalties? How would anyone expect him to give Snape 
> benefit of the doubt once Snape killed Dumbledore? 

Carol responds:
I agree that it doesn't make much sense, but DD must have either had
something in mind or trusted to Snape to find a way, no doubt
involving his Patronus. Snape could, if necessary, Petrify Harry and
force him to listen. I do wonder what DD (and JKR) had in mind, but a
way could have been found. Ideally, Portrait!DD could confide in
McGonagall and have her lead Harry to the Pensieve, where he would
explore Snape's memory (or memories) in her presence. But I don't
think that Harry would have killed Snape on sight. He had the
opportunity to do so in "Flight of the Prince" and didn't do so then.
Besides, Snape can easily outduel him. Anyway, Snape would have to
tell him what really happened on the tower and prove it via the
Pensieve, but it could have been done. (Ideas, anyone?)
> 
Carol earlier:
> > Just how DD intended for Snape to avoid being killed when LV
discovered that he was the supposed master of the Elder Wand is
unclear, but he may have been counting on timing--Harry finding and
destroying the Horcruxes before LV solved the mystery of the Elder
Wand, obtained it, and realized why it wasn't working for him (which,
BTW, is absurd--it worked just fine).
> 
> a_svirn:
> That explanation doesn't really work when you consider that he did 
> everything in his power to distract Harry from the Horcrux Hunt.

Carol:
But if Harry went after the Elder Wand, there wouldn't be a problem
for Snape, would there? Voldemort wouldn't find the wand because Harry
would have it, and he wouldn't know that he wasn't its master, so
Snape would be in no danger. In any case, as I've said before, if
Harry hadn't revealed his identity by using the Expelliarmus, which,
in turn, led to Harry's wand going off and destroying Lucius Malfoy's
wand, Voldemort wouldn't have set off when he did to find the Elder
Wand. And if Harry hadn't accidentally provided Voldemort the identity
of the golden-haired thief in Godric's Hollow, Voldemort's search
would have been stymied. It might even have been possible for Harry to
get the wand first and then get the Horcruxes. Voldemort would protect
Nagini, Snape would somehow find that out and somehow communicate it
to Harry without being in any danger because Harry would have the
Elder Wand, and Harry would be protected by having all three Hallows.
And, if Draco hadn't intervened, the wand would have lost its powers
in any case. (Was it supposed to become an ordinary wand or a useless
stick? The latter, I think.)
> 
> > Carol: 
> > At any rate, I think the combination of DD's regret for "poor
> > Severus," 
> 
> a_svirn:
> That particular regret sounds to me startlingly like Voldemort's, "I 
> regret it."

Carol:
Then Dumbledore is evil and the villain of the piece. I don't think
we're supposed to read him that way. Flawed, absolutely. Intelligent
but not nearly as wise as he thought, absolutely. Unwilling to trust
(despite Harry's view that he trusted too willingly), absolutely. A
manipulator and puppetmaster, yes, but not absolutely since his
"puppets," including Harry and Snape, had free will. And his plans,
like all plans, were subject to error. But Snape's death cannot have
been part of the plan. He was at risk, certainly, but he had been
risking death for years. But the plan depended on his being alive.
> 
Carol earlier:
> the implication that he wanted Snape to have the wand (but
presumably not use it or be its master), 
> 
> a_svirn:
> Then why have it at all? It seems to be a dangerous possession even
at best of times. To have it without using it would be like walking 
around with a big target painted on your back. 

Carol:
Not necessarily. If the wand were stripped of its powers, Snape could
just hand it to Voldemort (protecting himself if necessary with
Occlumency) and tell him that he took it from the dead DD. (I think DD
wanted to make some such arrangement with him in HBP before Draco
showed up on the tower. He tried to send Harry for Snape at least
twice.) But, yes, I do wonder what the plan was and what DD expected
Snape to do with the wand. Send it to Harry, maybe?
> 
> Carol:
> the unexpected events that speeded up LV's hunt for the Elder Wand,
and, especially, DD's need for Snape to deliver that message to Harry,
which could only be done if he were alive, indicates to me that he
didn't expect Snape to die. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> And yet had he been alive, Harry would have not been likely to
listen to him.  

Carol:
Harry trusted the doe Patronus and knew that it had led him to the
Sword of Gryffindor. And Harry listened to Sirius Black and Lupin in
PoA. I think if he knew that Snape's Patronus was the doe, he would
have listened. And Snape would have found a way. His plan to deliver
the Sword of Gryffindor worked perfectly, after all.

Carol, who thinks that the benevolent but flawed Dumbledore of "King's
Cross" is both real (Harry is visiting the land of the dead in spirit)
and truthful