Wand Lore / Luna / Alchemy

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 181757

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> > ---, "a_svirn" wrote:
> > 
> > > >:
> > > Well, if I were Voldemort I wouldn't believe to such proof.
> > > Especially if the wand wouldn't work for him as it should.
> 
> Jayne:
> > Did Voldemort actually really trust Snape anyway ? Would he acccept
> any proof from Snape. I think he just wanted him dead and out of the
way.
> 
> Pippin:
> Voldemort didn't really trust anyone, but he did have absolute
> confidence in his ability to tell whether someone was lying to him.
> Snape's truthfulness would not be doubted, only his facts. Voldemort
> would want to be sure that his servant had not been deceived by a ruse.

a_svirn:
However it may be, only someone with "a free and open nature", like
Othello could mistake such a flimsy piece of evidence for an
irrefutable proof. Voldemort's nature is anything but. And why would
Voldemort need any proof if he could use legillemency? 

 
> a_svirn:
> Or would it be "dying on his own terms"? After all, he made sure
> thatHarry force-fed him.
> 
> Pippin:
> Good point, Dumbledore can't really be sure what will persuade the
> wand. It is a unique object so there's no way for Dumbledore to be
> sure in advance that his theory is correct. Therefore it would be a
> good idea for  the wand to go to Snape so that Snape and portrait!DD 
> could deal with matters if the wand was not disabled. 

a_svirn:
That would mean that Snape would be the master of the wand. I can't
think that Dumbledore considered this a good idea. 

> Pippin:
> If we are trying to unravel Dumbledore's intentions, then we have to
> look at the best case scenario under Dumbledore's primary plan,
> because that would be the clearest reflection of what Dumbledore
> wanted. And under the primary plan, no Death Eaters were expected to
> enter the castle, and Draco was not expected to make any further
> attacks without backup. 

a_svirn:
I don't understand what it means. Dumbledore didn't make plans for
Draco, surely? How could he know what mad scheme Draco would come up
with? 

> Pippin:
Even Harry had to admit that -- he assumed
> Draco would get help from Snape. 

a_svirn:
How could he assume it? He knew from what he had overheard that Draco
refused Snape's help. 

> Pippin: 
> So under the primary plan, Dumbledore's death might remain secret, at
> least until his portrait appeared in the Headmaster's Office, and as
> we have seen with Snape, that could be delayed as long as necessary.

a_svirn:
No, I don't think so. A secret death would serve the purpose
of establishing Snape as Voldemort's most trusted servant and the
Headmaster of Hogwarts. 

> Pippin: 
> As Dumbledore had a habit of disappearing for long periods, it would
> take awhile for anyone to become suspicious that he was dead. 
> 
> Dumbledore ensured that Harry would find out about the Hallows, but he
> also made sure that two of them would not be found until Harry had
> done at least some of his homework. Harry would not be able to obtain
> the stone unless he believed that he was about to die. He would not
> know he needed to die unless Snape gave him the message, and Snape was
> not to give him the message until Voldemort had discovered his
> horcruxes were being attacked. 

a_svirn:
Ah, but you see, *if* Dumbledore's death would be a secret, Harry
wouldn't know about the Hallows at all because the content of
Dumblodere's would remain unknown, the Trio wouldn't receive their
corresponding bequests, also Harry wouldn't be alerted to the fact
that he would need the sword to destroy the Horcruxes, etc. Moreover,
Harry himself would be stranded, since he would be waiting for
Dumbledore's orders, as was the custom with the Order. The Order and
the Trio would be paralysed and waiting, while Voldemort would be free
and thriving. Hunting for the wand, lording over the WW and killing
the good guys. I really don't think much about this plan, if it was
indeed *the* plan. 

> Pippin: 

> I've already shown that it wasn't logical for Voldemort to assume that
> he had to kill Snape. 

a_svirn:
I don't think it wasn't logical. If Snape were the master of the wand
it was perfectly logical for Voldemort to kill him. For one thing it
was totally in character. For another, what else could he do? Duel
Snape? If Snape deliberately let him win, the wand might not recognise
him as a master. If he duelled in earnest and with the *Elder Wand*
there would be a slight chance that Snape he would best him. And that
would never do, surely. Of course he might try to steal it, but why
bother? So much easer to kill. Especially, since Snape outlived his
usefulness as a spy. 


> Pippin: 
It was in character, but only for Voldemort's
> paranoid side, which was to the forefront because Voldemort had
> discovered his horcruxes were being destroyed (and perhaps that the
> Slytherins hadn't joined him after all.) If Voldemort's
> confident side had been ascendant, Snape might have survived one more
> time. 

a_svirn:
You mean he only killed from the lack of confidence? I don't think so. 

> Pippin:
> If you are just trying to say that keeping Snape alive was not DD's
> highest priority, I agree with you. 

a_svirn:
Well, it is fairly obvious. What I am trying to say, is that leaving
the wand to Snape would put him jeopardy for no discernable reason. 

> Pippin: 
> That does not mean that Dumbledore *wanted* Snape to die. But  the
> increased danger of being the apparent master of the Elder
> Wand was as nothing compared to the danger Snape was already in. 

a_svirn:
Honestly. He would have something both Harry and Voldemort wanted.
Badly. That does not count for nothing. And ultimately he was killed
because of the wand, after he had weathered so many other storms. Even
though it*was* a mistake on Voldemort's part. 
a_svirn.