Slytherins come back WAS: Re: My Most Annoying Character

[lealess]

No: HPFGUIDX 180231

> > > zgirnius:
> > > Harry never expressed an opinion as to whether any Slytherins 
> > > returned with Sluggie or not. 
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > Harry's not expressing any opinion in this sentence (though if 
> > you're referring to that one sentence I don't see why Harry's 
> > opinion wouldn't be that it looked like shopkeepers, Charlie, 
> > Slughorn and friends/family of non-Slytherin students were there, 
> > period). The narrator is telling us, using the usual limited pov, 
> > what's going on. And all I'm saying is that when I read the scene 
> > I read the way I always do, which is to read the words that are 
> > there.

> Pippin:
> JKR is being ambiguous about the status of the houses. It's not 
> clear till we get to the epilogue that there still *is* a Sorting 
> Hat or that the house system will be preserved. Then we have to go 
> back, re-read, and realize that text never said the Sorting Hat was
> destroyed, just like it never said there were only non-Slytherins
> with Slughorn. 
> 

Or maybe she is being straightforward in the text and writing what 
she meant to write.  She was pretty unambiguous about Slytherin being 
asked to leave en masse in the first place, after all.

> The Slytherins with Sluggie are important in the first place only if
> you think all the Slytherins leaving proved they were no good. But
> no one ever said that either.
> 

Yes, Slytherins could have left for any reason, to save their own 
necks, for example -- Nigellus tells us that's what Slytherins will 
do.  Some might deduce that Slytherins are "no good" if they perceive 
that was the reason they left.  McGonagall only gave those 
opportunists the excuse to leave.

Others may feel they were forced to leave at wandpoint, and 
therefore, have not been proven evil.  Other readers may feel that 
the Slytherins were never give a choice, and what can one deduce from 
that... that Gryffindor McGonagall is a prejudiced biddy, 
perpetuating House enmity?  That the distrust and alienation of 
Slytherin House is so deep, it isn't even questioned?  That Slytherin 
will never be asked to prove its loyalty to Hogwarts, as it isn't 
even in the game to begin with?

Are Slytherins no good?  Various people have varying deductions based 
on the text and can argue persuasively either way.  When JKR comes 
out with another interview statement, will that be the definitive 
word on the subject for you?  What if she says they are all basically 
evil?

> Voldemort claimed the rest of the Slytherins joined him which turned
> out to be a lie because Crabbe and Goyle did not.  But the text
> never points that out, we have to deduce it. We're being asked to
> use our heads here, not believe only what a stressed and distracted
> Harry has observed.
> 

I assumed Voldemort was lying during the entire Battle of Hogwarts.  
His broadcasting was the embodiment of the Big Lie.  I didn't have to 
go back to the text later to realize he was lying.  Very well done, 
JKR.

> Albus is worried about being sorted into Slytherin because his 
> brother has been making him think Slytherins have cooties and
> because it may still be the preferred house of kids whose parents 
> would name them Scorpius. Harry can counter the second worry by 
> invoking Snape. But he can't prove there's no such thing as 
> cooties.  Albus will  have to find that out for himself.
> 

He'll find that out through Quidditch, House points and random 
interactions on the train, no doubt, not to mention booing of 
students who are sorted into Slytherin.  The teasing of his older 
brother and the views of his uncle will have absolutely no effect 
whatsoever, I'm sure.

> Pippin
>

Turning to the question of who came back with Slughorn, did the text 
say that *any* students came back with Slughorn?  Why would Harry 
think the people were friends or family if they were students?  Is 
Harry really so self-involved and dense that he can't recognize 
students, let alone some Slytherin students?

I think what people are saying is that if JKR really meant to 
indicate that Slytherins students were there, she could have done so 
in the text instead of our having to paste a scenario onto the text, 
or tell us in a latter-day interview.  For me, canon supports a 
position that no students came back with Slughorn.  That includes 
Slytherins.

When Nigellus says that Slytherins did their part, my first thought 
was "Slughorn."  One Slytherin, but Nigellus would mention him 
because of pride of House.  Through Slughorn, Slytherin did its part.

I mean, what about Centaurs and Mermen -- did they participate in the 
battle?  Just because we are not told they did doesn't mean they 
didn't, according to one line of thought.  Really, who would notice a 
few horses trampling around the grounds, or spears being thrown out 
of the lake?

An example of a deduction: When Harry says to Dumbledore that he 
never killed anyone if he didn't have to (paraphrasing), that is 
similar to a loaded question, e.g., "When did you stop beating your 
wife?"  Unless Dumbledore answers, "I never killed anyone," we are 
left with the presumption, Harry's presumption, that he did, in fact, 
kill someone.  That Dumbledore killed someone is a perfectly valid 
deduction within the text, I think.

I could get even wilder with my deductions, but I'll save that for 
fanfic.

lealess