Respect (was: Less than 1000 posts in a month - why now?

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 180335

Susan McGee:
> > Betsy, I want to suggest that when you say that JKR is evil, that
> > you are really attacking her...saying that she is not a bright
> > bulb is a comment that would not be tolerated on this list by
> > the list elves if you said it about me. I am in an incredible
> > minority who thinks that Ms. Rowling should be treated as well
> > as anyone on this list. The List Elves do not agree, so I am
> > suppressed.... oh well...
 
Ceridwen:
> I'm not Betsy and so can't answer for her, but the difference 
> between you and JKR to me is that Rowling is a public figure and as 
> such is subject to more public criticism than private individuals, 
> while you are a private individual.  Rowling has made the choice to 
> be visible and recognizeable; you haven't.  

SSSusan:
Ceridwen has captured the difference here re: the list elves and list 
policy.  I've been a member of the group since mid-2003 and a list 
elf since early 2005, and I think the moderators have been pretty 
consistent in this:  while it is *not* okay to disparage a list 
member, a public figure *is* fair game for criticism, even if it's 
our series' creatrix.  

What I believe is different from mid-2007 onward is that there has 
definitely been *more* criticism being leveled at JKR, whether that 
pertains to what she did with her series, what she didn't do with her 
series, what she seems to be saying about her own values, or what 
she's revealing in interviews.  So what might *feel* like a change in 
list policy (because of the amount of criticism or negative response 
to JKR) is not actually a change in policy but a change in, I don't 
know how best to phrase it, amount of criticism... degree of 
criticism... level of intensity of criticism.  

The truth is there have always been members of HPfGU who were 
critical of JKR and/or aspects of her story.  That there are now many 
more members who are so speaks simply, I would submit, to the tenor 
of the list membership and the fandom at the moment.  Okay, well, 
maybe I should qualify that "and the fandom" a bit -- I don't know 
that children who are HP fans have begun to criticize JKR 
significantly more, and I don't think it's true that what I'd 
call "casual" adult fans have begun to do so either.  But, let's 
admit it, we at HPfGU are a different animal by and large, are we 
not? :)  We're adult fans who tend to be serious fans, who have 
invested many years into discussion, many hours into theorizing and 
debating, and who know the details of the books inside & out (much 
moreso than the typical child or less "serious" adult fan).  

I would maintain that *this* is in large part precisely what has led 
to the degree and level of criticism we have seen expressed about 
JKR/the series at HPfGU.  I know that when I speak with friends of 
mine who are fans but not *as* into HP as this group's members tend 
to be, and when I read posts at another adult group I belong to whose 
members are mostly less *deeply* into the books, then the level of 
criticism is much less.  In fact, I often encounter puzzlement from 
these people when I explain what kinds of criticisms have been 
expressed here.  But we invested a lot; therefore, if the series was 
a disappointment, there was a lot to be upset about.  Or so I see it 
that way.  

And so I would again argue that the expectations from the mods 
haven't changed -- it's always been clear that criticism is 
appropriate, that JKR isn't the same as a list member in terms of 
what might be said about her, and that members who disagree with a 
negative remark have every right to respond in an attempt to rebut.  
That's how we play here. :)

As for me personally, I'm one who has always reacted quite positively 
to JKR, to Harry and to the overall series... even after the end. :) 
It's true that it has been hard at times to visit the list and see 
that there have been a *lot* of peeved, upset, angry and disappointed 
HPfGUers, but I've always known that I could present my counter views 
and positions as well -- it's up to ME to do that, not mods to come 
down on posters who were dissatisfied, simply on the grounds that 
they were dissatisfied or criticising JKR!

What occurred upthread is exactly what I'm talking about.  Betsy 
feels quite strongly the things she does about the series and about 
JKR.  Susan McGee disagrees with that position, and each has the 
right to express her opinion.  I happen to be in Susan's camp on the 
issue of calling JKR "evil:"  I don't like it; I think it's too 
strong; I just don't agree with it in the slightest.  Yet Betsy 
does.  So it's my place to say what I think about that if it matters 
that much to me (and I've just done so :)), but Betsy and any other 
member can tell us what s/he feels about JKR & the books as long as 
nice, polite, opinion-language-laced posts with canon support are 
made.  That's what we do here. :)

Okay, enough of that.  On to an issue Ceridwen raised....

Ceridwen:
> The interviews.  *sigh*  I wish she'd move on.  You've focused on 
> the outing of Dumbledore, as it is what a lot of people point to 
> when expressing their dissatisfaction.  It's probably the biggest 
> post-series reveal, but it isn't the only one.  It is the most 
> memorable.  I never got that in the text.  By the time she 
> mentioned this, which would have slightly changed my perception of 
> why DD was so reluctant to confront GG, I was already wishing she 
> would get a hobby or join an author's survival group.  
<snip>
> Rowling doesn't have to continue these interviews.  I know I don't 
> have to read them, and I don't, but they're brought up in the 
> oddest contexts so that I see certain quotes even though I am 
> definitely not looking for them. 

SSSusan:
Here's where I've been most disappointed with JKR as well -- the post-
series interviews.

I wasn't at all unhappy to discover that JKR had "always seen DD as 
gay."  Not at all.  I was disappointed she didn't see fit to reveal 
that in the text somehow, nice and matter-of-factly (and I saw the 
same place as Ceridwen mentioned, where it would've made the decision 
not to go after GG for a long time more *understandable* if we'd 
known), but I wasn't disappointed at the news itself.  

But what has made me unhappy is something else.  I'm not very good at 
expressing it, but I'll give it a stab.  In the past, before the 
series was over, I almost always enjoyed jkrowling.com updates and 
dashed off to read new interviews whenever I learned of them.  I was 
happy to learn that Mark Evans's name meant nothing re: Lily, was 
unhappy to learn that the Droobles gum wrappers only ever were that, 
but in general, I enjoyed the upates and hints and clarifications she 
provided.  

What I'm NOT enjoying now is the way *some* of the information is 
coming out of the interviews.  It's the almost *flipness* with which 
she is answering some questions that has me upset.  Let me use 
the "missing 24 hours" as an example.  This, from the recent podcast 
(12/23/07):

>> I'm gonna have to really go back through notes and either admit 
that I lost twenty four hours or I don't know, hurriedly come up with 
some back story to fill in. (SU laughs) Either way, you either get to 
be right, or you get more story. So you can't complain. <<


I always like that JKR really, really, really knew the background of 
all these characters & events, so that she could respond quickly with 
an "Oh, no, that's not the case, because...." or "Well, actually, I'm 
not going to be able to fit in Dean's backstory, but I can tell you 
that...."  She KNEW the details and so she could respond seriously or 
she could say truthfully, "Well, I'm afraid that just isn't something 
that plays out in the story" (Mark Evans, Alice's Droobles wrappers, 
the precise fates of Harry's grandparents, etc.), because she KNEW.  
I liked that she seemed to respect the questions as being sincere, 
she tended to respond to them with respect for those who'd studied, 
noted and/or theorized.  

But what doesn't feel right to me is the kind of response we got 
about the 24 hours... a sort of "Oh, you know, I might have made a 
mistake, and if I did, maybe I'll need to make something up quick, 
heh heh heh."  THAT feels flip and, frankly, a little disrespectful.  
An admission of "I messed up my maths again!" wouldn't feel that way, 
but saying, essentially, "Eh, I'll make something up real quick so 
you all can be happy" doesn't.  

If you didn't think of it already, Jo, then don't make something up 
NOW.  Some of us thought a lot about that and what might have been 
going on during the 24 hours.  If JKR **had thought that out but just 
elected not to include it,** then I'd want to know what The Answer 
was.  But if she didn't think it through, then she doesn't really 
have The Answer, does she?  And that's what I'm not liking about the 
interviews.  I wish she'd stick to revealing things she knows but 
didn't elect to include in canon and admit things she might have 
muffed or forgotten, and NOT move into "Oh, maybe I'll make something 
up for that" after it's all over.  That doesn't feel true to me, nor 
fair even.

But that's just me. 

Siriusly Snapey Susan