[HPforGrownups] Re: Respect

[Kathryn Jones]

No: HPFGUIDX 180372

pippin_999 wrote:
> 
> 

> Pippin:
> They're adults in this book. Personal growth is desirable but it's no
> longer their main job in life. Much growth that occurs is kept subtle.
> We're often watching it happen instead of experiencing it through the
> inner life of the characters. As Dumbledore told us in OOP, youth
> should not be expected to understand how age thinks and feels.

KJ Writes:
   Great answers, Pippin.  Thanks for responding. You are right in 
saying that they are now adults, but I am only considering the 
characters from the point of continuity in the books. Nothing else. We, 
as readers, fill in gaps in our knowledge about characters 
automatically. I am saying that they should have maintained the same 
basic character from one book to the next, with only age appropriate 
changes. There were some disconnects for me in the last book. Some 
writers write characters and let their chosen characters direct the 
action.  Other writers write the story and force the characters into the 
action whether it is appropriate to their personality or not.  Readers 
then fill in explanations. I'm just saying that it should not have been 
necessary in the last book, because the first six books were maintained 
perfectly in character.



> Harry learns to do a crucio and then learns not to do it--
> no one could have stopped him from cruciating every DE he
> could get his hands on, but he does not. He also learns definitively
> that contrary to what Ron once told him, poisonous toadstools can
> change their spots. He also learns that it's as important to know how
> to give up power as how to get it.

  KJ:
   I did not find the writing of Harry learning that Snape was on the 
"good side" convincing. Snape was not working for "good," he was working 
for Lilly, which to my mind is also not convincing. Fine, if Snape was 
totally ineffectual, mooning about his lost Lilly, mentally damaged by 
the loss, he would not have become as effective as he did.  He was 
second to Voldemort.
     The kind of person, as Snape was portrayed, was likely to find 
Dumbledore of enormous importance in his life. He was never jealous of 
Dumbledore's relationship with Harry, which he should have been after 20 
years.
     How would Harry understand that Snape was "good" enough to name a 
child, from watching his obsessive memories of Lilly?  Presumably Harry 
named his son as a sign of respect for courage, not because he 
understood that Snape was a good person in disguise.  Snape was never 
allowed to actually become a good person, which is also odd to me 
because Lilly liked him.  A person like Lilly would dislike a bad 
person, which of course, eventually happened.


> Pippin:
> If it was really him they respected, they would have respected his
> feelings for Lily. When he realized they would never do that, I
> think he realized that he was nothing in their eyes. Can you
> wonder that he broke with them completely when they disappointed
> him so badly, when in the same thread we're discussing how readers
> could so completely lose their respect for JKR?

KJ:
   This is blanks being filled in again. You, as a reader, should not 
have to do this. He did not break with them completely. JKR showed us 
several times that Snape was tight with Lucius. Narcissa trusted him, he 
was comfortable in his scene with the Death Eaters and Burbidge. He was 
meant to be seen as one of them. JKR never meant us to see him as other 
than he was, the character just kept getting away from her. That was the 
disconnect. We as readers, kept seeing more to him, as our minds filled 
in explanations for his actions.

Pippin:
> You (I'm using this generically and not to any particular poster)
> thought she would care about the same things you cared about. And
> when you discovered she didn't, you felt used. And angry. And it
> only makes you angrier to realize that you might've known all along.
> Right?

KJ:
   Wrong.  Since I am only concerned with characterization, it makes no 
difference to me what the messages in the story say, although they are 
rather confused, and I don't really care that she ended the book 
differently than I might have expected, but I do expect to see 
continuity in characterization and a point to the whole exercise.

> Pippin:
> I'm not following your logic. It's pointless for it to be in the books if
> it has no effect, but any information about a character should be in the
> books? The process of character generation can create a lot of information
> that an author may decide not to use. Are you saying JKR shouldn't
> have even thought about the sexual orientation of her characters, or that
> once she had she was obligated to make it relevant to the story? Why?

KJ:
   If a character's choices are based on certain happenings in his life, 
then the basis for those happenings should be in the book and in the 
characterization. Dumbledore said that it was our choices that made us 
who we are, therefore, his defining choice should have been clear. His 
character was connected with love of another man, Snape's was based on 
the love for a woman. Make it clear for God's sake. If not, leave it 
out, especially after the book is published.  What was the point of 
making him gay, which had an effect on the story, and then telling us 
after the end?

Pippin:
> I think if JKR says the book was well-considered, we could
> give her the courtesy of suspending our disbelief (if necessary) and try
> to understand what she means.

KJ:
   All I am saying is that it is not up to us to suspend our belief.  It 
is the job of the author to ensure that our belief is not suspended. She 
did a fabulous job for six books. There were few errors that made any 
difference to the story. It tracked. For some reason, it fell apart in 
the last book. We are not obliged to forcibly suspend our disbelief when 
  our minds tell us that something is wrong with a book.  Are we just 
supposed to assume that the writer has not failed, that there is 
something wrong with us? She had a problem with this last book. It feels 
like she was forced into deciding whether Harry lived or died, had to 
change a bunch of people and information, and add a bunch of stuff that 
didn't need to be there, in order for that to happen. That is why this 
book is disappointing. And yes, if something blows up, there had better 
be a noise!