Occlumency lessons WAS: Slytherins come back

[Annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 180452

 
> > Annemehr:
> > 
> > The way I see it, the phrase "open your mind even further to 
> > Voldemort WHILE in my presence"  denotes the joining of two 
events 
> > in time:  1)opening Harry's mind and 2)being with Dumbledore.  
And 
> > joining them in the sentence explaining why DD didn't teach Harry 
> > implies they *could* be separate, and in fact *were* separate, in 
> > the alternative situation DD did in fact set up: Harry's 
occlumency
> > lessons with Snape opened his mind further to Voldemort WHILE NOT 
> > in the presence of Dumbledore.
> 
> Mike:
> While I agree, your interpretation of the passage in OotP seems 
> logical, I'm not sure you have Dumbledore's reasons correct.
> Let me explain.
> 
> Many of us wondered if the "scar connection" was a two-way street. 
> Interpreting DD's words would tend to make one come away with that 
> conclusion. That would also put Snape in an awkward position if 
> Voldemort was sitting in on Harry's Occlumency lessons with Snape. 
<snip>

Annemehr:

I believe I covered Snape's vulnerability in my original post: my 
understanding of the phenomenon (i.e. that LV can sense something 
coupled with the side-effect of the lessons opening Harry's mind 
further) allows Snape to assure LV that what he is doing is 
*softening Harry up* for LV's mind-attacks.  All the while pretending 
he's trying to teach Harry the opposite, on DD's orders, natch.  A 
typical day in the life of a double-agent, eh?
 
Mike:
 
> We knew the connection was open throughout OotP, then Voldemort 
> closes it off in HBP, by Occlumency according to Dumbledore. But 
the 
> connection is re-opened in DH. Why? I don't know, no explanation 
was 
> given, unless it was part of the whole parasitic thing growing 
> stronger explanation. 

Annemehr:

What we get in DH re soul bits in general is very problematic for me; 
I have never been able to make complete sense of what happens in the 
text. My assessment of the effect of Occlumency lessons depends 
pretty much completely on what we get in OoP.

Mike:
> 
> But, was the connection a two-way street? NO! Voldemort's eyes/mind 
> have always been the camera and Harry's mind has always been the 
> projection screen. That was the case throughout OotP and it was the 
> case throughout DH. Voldemort was never shown to have seen what's 
> going on with Harry, or where he is. If he could have seen through 
> Harry, he would have been on Harry first in the "Seven Potters", 
> would have seen that he was at 12 GP, was at the Ministry, where 
the 
> camping trip took them, seen him captured and in the Malfoy 
dungeon, 
> on and on. The connection was open during almost every one of these 
> events, and yet Voldemort didn't know where Harry was.
> 

Annemehr:
Ah, but YES, I am sure the connection in OoP was a two way street, to 
at least a certain extent.  

First of all, it's the only way LV would have known when Harry 
actually got the vision of Sirius being crucioed, so that Kreacher 
could be notified to get Sirius out of the way of any inquiries from 
Harry -- and the DEs notified to clear the Ministry of personnel.

Beyond that, we have another example in ch. 36, when Harry and 
Bellatrix are in the MoM atrium, and Harry tells Bella that the 
prophecy is smashed:

>>>  "Well, you're going to have to kill me, because it's gone!" 
Harry roared -- and as he shouted it, pain seared across his 
forehead.  His scar was on fire again, and he felt a surge of fury 
that was quite unconnected with his own rage.  "And he knows!" said 
Harry with a mad laugh to match Bellatrix's own.  "Your dear old mate 
Voldemort knows it's gone!  He's not going to be happy with you, is 
he?" <<<

And then, of course, LV actually appears in the atrium in response to 
this.  Because Harry, in his rage, roared to Bella the one fact she 
would hate and fear to know, and his rage carried that fact to LV's 
mind.

Given that, I accept DD's explanation that LV first became aware of 
this during the attack on Arthur Weasley (but *how* does he know? -- 
actually this bugs me).  My best guess is that LV received 
*something* in his direction if Harry's emotions were strong enough.  

It's also why I accept the plain-English sense of DD's explanation 
for why he didn't give the Occlumency lessons.  And this is one thing 
that seems quite clear to me.

(A possible explanation for why LV seems to sense nothing in DH is 
that he never stopped using Occlumency against Harry and thus blocked 
himself from receiving anything from him.  But, since Harry had a 
soul piece within himself, he was able to learn to overcome 
the "block" on his end whenever he accessed LV on purpose -- because 
LV couldn't, in effect, practice Occlumency on himself.  *shrug*  It 
makes as much sense as anything else I've come up with.)


> Mike:
> Try this one, Anne. :) Dumbledore said he saw the shadow of 
Voldemort 
> behind Harry's eyes after the Arthur-gets-bit episode. So when 
> Dumbledore says "open your mind even further to Voldemort" was he 
> referring to the soul bit or the newly embodied LV?
> 
> I think it can be interpreted as opening/weakening Harry's mind for 
> the soul piece to gain more control. Somehow, these soul pieces 
have 
> some sense of self, they know where they come from and who their 
> enemies are. Witness the Diary. Dumbledore could have been afraid 
of 
> giving the soul piece more incentive to take over Harry's mind, if 
it 
> perceived DD as trying to block it from connecting to the father 
> ship. An incentive that it probably wouldn't have if Harry was 
being 
> taught by Snape, a perceived ally.

Annemehr:

But the soul piece Harry carried seems to have had precious little 
influence on the way Harry acted of its own accord -- it seemed to 
have less of an effect on his personality than wearing the locket 
did, for instance.  So I find it hard to imagine that DD was that 
worried about it apart from its connection to LV.  After all, he 
spent so much time with Harry and his little passenger in HBP.  If 
the soul bit had such a sense of self, why did it not act up then, 
regardless of whether LV was using Occlumency?  No, I'm afraid I 
don't find this idea convincing.


Mike:
> 
> What did I miss? I know I missed something, but can't for the life 
of 
> me figure out what it is?
>

Maybe it was how LV knew when Kreacher needed to distract Sirius and 
how he knew that the prophecy was smashed? ;-)

Annemehr