That "Love" thing

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 180476

> >> Betsy Hp:
> > To my mind, this is the most messed up definition of love, and   
> > the most messed up way to study love I've ever heard of.  Create 
> > a false illusion of obsession and lust and *that's* supposed to   
> > teach you about love?  THAT'S what's in the "love room"?!?

> >>a_svirn:
> Yeah, unspeakable, isn't it?

Betsy Hp:
Hah!  Okay, you win. :D

> >>a_svirn:
> Then again, perhaps we are meant to think of the Department of
> Mysteries as of one big red herring of the series?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
At this point I lean more towards lost plot point.  JKR is good at 
the set up, not so good at the follow through, IMO.  And the DoM is 
just one example.

> >>Pippin:
> Hee! And that's just what I love about the WW. They have this      
> beautiful philosophy, and then it gets all messed up in the         
> execution.

Betsy Hp:
I didn't see any examples of a beautiful philosophy, though. I don't 
think I see any sort of philosophy in the WW.  It's all tooth and 
claw and survival, which granted, *is* a philosophy but I'd argue 
default rather than forethought (or afterthought for that matter).

> >>Pippin:
> And that's why it doesn't make a difference to Harry whether Al     
> goes into Slytherin.
> Salazar's house has a reputation as the home of bad wizards, and
> Gryffindor has a reputation as the home of good ones. But           
> reputations don't make choices, people do.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
And Harry reassures Al that if he'd like to choose Gryffindor (which 
Al quite obviously would) than his choice will make a difference.  
I'm not sure what this has to do with the orgy room at the DoM...

> >>Pippin:
> But the thing that I hear JKR saying about love, and maybe you just 
> disagree with this, is that from the inside there's no difference. 
> The person who's in love can't tell whether a) the thing he loves   
> really has the qualities he's in love with   b)those qualities are 
> worth loving or c)something is messing with his brain chemistry and 
> it's going to wear off. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I just don't see how observing someone under the influence of a 
powerful mind-altering drug will teach anyone anything about love.  
To equate the two demonstrates, to my mind, a profound 
misunderstanding about what love is.  And I do disagree with the idea 
that love (real actual love, not lust or infactuation) is seperate 
from clear-sightedness.  I'd actually argue that to see someone 
clearly requires that you love them.  But then, I'm not equating love 
with sex or obsession.

> >>Pippin:
> The love that Harry feels for his family as he looks into the       
> Mirror of Erised is real, who could doubt it? Yet the mirror       
> contains neither knowledge nor truth. 

Betsy Hp:
::raises hand:: I doubt it.  How could Harry love these people he 
doesn't know?  He loves the *idea* of them (and who could blame him) 
but he doesn't know them to really love them.  And since they aren't 
real, they can't really love him.  That's the tragedy and the trap of 
that mirror: it's all illusion and false promises.  As you say, 
neither knowledge nor truth.

> >>Besty Hp:
> > It explains why Snape was made pathetic and weak by his "love"   
> > for Lily. 

> >>Pippin:
> Huh? To me this speaks of a basic misunderstanding of the plot. :)
> Snape was made strong by his love for Lily, strong enough to defy
> Voldemort.

Betsy Hp:
Well, no.  It was a madly in love Snape who both joined the Death 
Eaters and served Voldemort.  So yeah, no strength there.  In fact, 
I'd say it was Snape's longing for love and his inability to properly 
define it that made him such easy pickings for Voldemort. (A fool 
wearing his heart on his sleeve, perhaps?)  And part of his inability 
to recognize love came from his not recognizing how Lily was treating 
him.  Lily never loved Snape: she never allowed herself to see him.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> I wish Dumbledore, that cold-hearted bastard, had told him that
> Lily wouldn't have wanted him to mourn her forever.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Why would Dumbledore do that?  After all, it was Snape's guilt that 
made him malleable.  Dumbledore certainly couldn't rely on any sort 
of inner philosophy or personal code of conduct on Snape's part 
(which, I'm sure Dumbledore appreciated as a thinking Snape would 
have questioned him far too much, IMO).  Dumbledore *needed* Snape to 
mourn forever.  And to be perfectly honest, I doubt Lily would have 
cared.  (Probably she'd have taken it as her due.)

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > It explains why we never see the Weasleys interact as a loving 
> > family would, supporting and building each other up rather than 
> > constantly sniping and pulling each other down. 

> Pippin:
> When does a Weasley need help from his family and not get it? 

Betsy Hp:
When Ron needed help and support as keeper neither the twins nor 
Ginny stepped forward.  The twins, rather grudgingly, laid off the 
teasing, but Ginny did not.  And none of them offered to run drills 
with him at all.  Quite honestly it was inexplicatly shabby behavior 
on their part, both as siblings and as fellow team-members.

When Percy was being laid out as the MoM's scape-goat over the Crouch 
debacle, we hear nothing of Arthur or anyone coming to his aid.  And 
of course, he was never supported in his job in the first place.  
(The twins actively try and undermine him.)

> >>Pippin:
> They tear each other down when there's something that needs tearing,
> and that's why they're not smug, self-righteous gits like the       
> Dursleys (although Percy came close.) 

Betsy Hp:
Ironic considering Percy was the Weasley most torn down.  And then 
there's Ginny.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > Love is a weakness and a danger, apparently. Of course her good   
> > guy avoids it if he can.
 
> >>Pippin:
> By the end of the book, the good guy is Harry, who doesn't avoid
> love, who is a better man than Dumbledore because he can love,
> because he's not afraid to love although he knows that love can
> be misleading.  

Betsy Hp:
Harry is certainly more loving than Dumbledore.  (I've seen rocks 
more loving than Dumbledore. *g*)  But he's pretty careful to love 
only those who first love (I'd almost go so far as to say worship) 
him.  Harry never took a risk with his heart.  Which is probably why 
the WW stays so comfortably in its status-quo.

> >>Betsy Hp
> > PS:  I have to mention this gem...
> > "JKR: No! God, it wasn't Pansy Parkinson! I loath that girl. (JN 
> > and SU laugh) I don't love Draco but I really dislike her. She's 
> > every girl who ever teased me at school, she's the anti-Hermione. 
> > I loathe her. Yes, sorry, sidetracked there by my latent         
> > bitterness
"
> > Hee!  No wonder I liked Pansy. :D

> >>Pippin:
> Betsy, are you saying you teased people like JKR when you were in   
> school? :D

Betsy Hp:
I'm saying anyone anti-Hermione can come sit by me. ;)

Betsy Hp