Lupin's behavior (Was: CHAPDISC: DH11, The Bribe)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 180646

> Carol responds:
> 
> Clearly, Lupin doesn't think they're going to remain in 12 GP.
> Harry mentions that he wants to go along on their "adventure"
> (surely, he's not referring to the "adventure" of listening to
> Mrs. Black's screams or living on moldy bread).

Mike:
The "adventure" to the MoM took less than a full day. Same for the 
Gringotts "adventure". But look how long they took to plan. 
Furthermore, in the Gringotts adventure, they not only included a 
Goblin in the planning, they took him along. Now how would things be 
so different (planning-wise, objective-wise, and with regards to 
keeping the Horcrux secret) if they had included Remus instead of 
Griphook?

And Remus could have brought them fresh bread from the Tonks. He 
could also shut Ma Black up himself a couple of times. ;)



> Carol:
> Lupin knows full well that they've been entrusted by DD with a 
> mission that will involve leaving 12 GP, which is why he's offered
> to "protect" them.

Mike:
Nothing I've read in the whole exchange leads me to believe that 
Lupin knew the Trio were going to be travelling extensively. In fact, 
not yet knowing that the locket was with Umbridge in the Ministry, 
why would the Trio think they were going to be travelling? I don't 
know what "protection" Lupin was envisioning, we never got that far.



> Carol:
> He also asks what they're up to, which Harry has already refused
> to tell McGonagall, Scrimgeour, and Mrs. Weasley. Why should Lupin
> be any different? When has he ever confided in Harry? He kept some
> pretty important secrets from him in PoA.

Mike:
Yes he did, but he eventually spilled some of those important 
secrets. Although Lupin looked disappointed that Harry wouldn't 
confide the secret, Lupin admits he expected this.



> Carol:
> I've already explained how running from the wife he impregnated 
> with a child who may turn out to be a werewolf like himself can be
> interpreted as cowardice. *If* he were offering his services with 
> the safety of the WW in mind, it would be different.

-< cutting and pasting Carol's sig line to here>-

> Carol, hoping that someone will respond to her canon-based post
> upthread but pretty sure that no one in this thread is going to 
> change anyone else's mind

Mike:
I'll respond to both. I agree with your interpretation with regards 
to Lupin's motivations. In part of the post you snipped, I admit that 
Lupin's motives were less than altruistic. I think the whole poor, 
poor, pitiful me rant makes that abundantly clear.

I'm trying, though maybe not successfully, to point out that an Order 
member trying to help Harry was a good thing (if only it weren't a 
Lupin trying to run away from his problems). That there was a 
conspicuous lack of help offered by the Order, Lupin being the only 
one after the 7 Harrys escape.

I'm also agreeing with a_svirn that it wasn't Harry's place to impose 
his value system, "Parents shouldn't leave their kids ..." <p 215>, 
no matter whether he was right about Lupin or not. Harry won't 
confide his secrets, but he feels free to decide that Lupin's home 
life doesn't live up to his standards?

I don't care that Harry was right, witnessed by Lupin's transformed 
reaction to fatherhood. I don't care that Harry shocked him into 
this, and that it was probably a good thing in the long run. I also 
don't care that Lupin was offering his help for all the wrong 
reasons. My gut reaction was to think, "It's about time someone said 
that to Remus." But my sense of fair play said, "How dare Harry call 
Lupin a coward for offering help? And how *dare* he impose his 
morality like some Godfather on a man that has risked his life 
numerous times in the fight against Voldemort and to save Harry?"

You're right about another thing Carol, there doesn't look like a lot 
of mind changing going on here. :)

 
> Carol:
> They still wouldn't want him along because DD told them to work
> alone, <snip>

Mike:
Whoa! Where did you read that? I remember Dumbledore telling 
Harry, "You need your friends." If Harry didn't count Lupin among his 
friends, so be it. 

Though Harry asked if he could divulge new information to Ron and 
Hermione during HBP, Dumbledore's sole admonition was about asking 
Ron and Hermione not to spread it around. I don't remember DD telling 
Harry they had to "work alone". Got some canon for me, or do you just 
mean by inference?



> Carol:
> <snip>  (Harry knows too well what it's like to be an orphan.
> There's no need, yet, for Lupin to risk his life. <snip>
 
Mike:
This part makes no sense to me. Since when is there a good time or a 
bad time to risk one's life? Good cause or bad cause, I'll buy. But 
Lupin isn't changing causes.

And if you can use the fact that Harry's disapproval proved later in 
the book to be a good thing, can I use the fact that Lupin dies later 
in the book proves that it doesn't matter when he risks his life. In 
fact, maybe if he dies with Harry, Tonks has no reason to abandon 
Teddy during the Battle of Hogwarts, so she stays home and Teddy 
doesn't grow up an orphan.

-------------------
LUPIN'S LYCANTHROPY

> Carol responds:
> 
> Again, I've already said this, so please forgive me for repeating
> myself. There are two possible ways to protect HRH from Lupin's
> transformations: to lock him up (cf. the Shrieking Shack) or to
> make Wolfbane Potion. 

Mike:
There is a third option. Lupin can do whatever those other werewolves 
that don't have access to wolfsbane do. Apparate to an island out in 
the Irish Sea, some vast uninhabited moor, a place like the Forbidden 
Forest; some place where he'll do no harm. There a supposed to be 
many more "of [his] kind" besides Greyback. What do you suppose they 
do during a full moon? What did Lupin himself do during the year of 
HBP when he was supposedly spying on the other werewolves for 
Dumbledore? Do you suppose he left them and didn't transform with 
them? Not a good way to make friends and influence werewolves, 
wouldn't you say?


Carol:
> As for locking him in an upstairs room to protect themselves while
> he transforms at 12 GP, don't you think that the DEs will report
> his howls to LV, who can only conclude that Harry is staying there,
> too? (And certainly, once they're on the camping trip, they'll have
> no place to lock him up.) <snip>

Mike:
Though Mother Blacks frequent rants wouldn't do the same thing? But 
what did it matter, the DEs were already camped outside of 12 GP 
before Lupin showed up. Why would a howling werewolf alert them to 
any more than they already suspected? And how would a howling wolf 
mean that Harry was in there? I'm not seeing the connection.

To argue that Lupin's lycanthropy should be or was any factor in this 
decision to include Lupin seems without basis. Neither the Trio nor 
Lupin know where they're going on these "adventures" nor when. The 
Trio took many weeks planning their Ministry raid and still they 
planned to return to 12 GP. 

Lupin has survived for many years without the aid of the wolfsbane 
potion, what would make anyone believe he couldn't do it any more? 
It's only a day or so out of each month, and presumedly he's figured 
out how to deal with it without afflicting new victims. Why is this 
situation so different than what he's had to deal with for most of 
his life?

Mike