Lupin's behavior (Was: CHAPDISC: DH11, The Bribe)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 180693

> Magpie wrote:
> 
> > But so what? Being married to someone or being someone's father 
> > doesn't change the basic idea of not wanting to put them in 
danger. 
> > If anything it would give you even more of a horror of putting 
them 
> > in harm's way. Lupin's situation is different (Harry's also 
worried 
> > about the damage Ginny does to his ability to fight) but I don't 
> > think the fact that he's married suddenly makes it irresponsible 
to 
> > consider leaving to make his family safer or to consider leaving 
to 
> > join the fight. That can be the right decision in some cases. 
<snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> As Lupin himself admits, he put Tonks in danger by marrying her
> (before that, she was an Order member and the "brat" of a pure-
blood
> mother and a Muggle-born father, but now she's the wife of a 
werewolf.
> To make matters worse, he has knowingly impregnated her, knowingly
> fathered a half-werewolf child who may become a werewolf himself. 
The
> child's very existence makes him a target, and as long as Tonks is
> pregnant with him, she's even more of a target than she would be 
as a
> werewolf's wife. So Lupin is supposed to undo his mistake and make
> things right by abandoning them both? Sorry, but that makes no 
sense
> to me, none whatever, any more than it makes sense to Harry.

Magpie:
::shrug:: Makes sense to me. Lupin is dealing with the same problem 
he feared before--he thought it was a bad idea to get married and 
have a child, while many non-werewolves thought Lupin should have a 
family. Lupin is still the only person who says it's bringing them 
down; he brought that on himself, he seems to accept that. That's 
why he feels so guilty about it and is kicking himself for doing it. 

But he's not simply "abandoning" them. He saying he's leaving them 
because he thinks that's better for them while he will go meet the 
danger that's coming anyway. The difference between Lupin being at 
home and not being at home doesn't seem all that great--I could 
imagine the family being a little safer *or* a little more in danger 
with him there. They're not just being left to their own devices 
either way. 

That said, of course this is also about Lupin's own feelings. *He* 
can't stand being with them and feeling like he's ruined lives. And 
that's all about him, and one is free to think his solution is wrong-
-but I don't find those feelings hard to understand and am surprised 
Harry would. If he'd talked about understanding what it's like to 
bring danger and death upon the people you love that would have been 
a different scene. 

Carol: 
> He is offering to go into unknown danger and "protect" three of-age
> wizards, one of whom has already defeated Voldemort twice (three
> times, if you count surviving an AK and vaporizing Voldemort 
through
> no effort of his own). It's not as if there were an actual battle 
to
> fight, as there is at Hogwarts later. 

Magpie:
Harry's defeats of Voldemort weren't down to Harry being 
indestructible and not needing any help. Sometimes help from others 
was the deciding factor (in their last battle before this scene I 
believe Harry's wand had to grow a brain and save him). Sure there's 
no actual battle yet, but there are things to be done and I 
understand Lupin wanting to feel like he's doing something to help 
his family rather than sitting around being the guy that got them 
into danger and now it's just his duty to suffer the guilt and wait. 
I don't think that's exactly being a daredevil. It could be self-
hatred, that if it's going to come down he ought to die fighting it. 
Or it could be a feeling this is the right thing to do. Even if one 
considers this a really bad idea, I don't think the man's abandoning 
his family to have fun. Even if it is down to Lupin's not believing 
anybody could ever be lucky to have him around (which is really sad) 
I doubt he'd really snap out of that just because somebody told him 
he was a shameful coward who only cared about himself. That might 
just feed into the self-hatred.

Carol:
> It's Lupin himself, not Harry, who says "This isn't about danger or
> personal glory" *before* Harry has made his "daredevil" remark,
> suggesting to Harry, at least, that, yes, it is about exactly that.

Magpie:
Lupin isn't exactly known for chasing after personal glory. That's 
something Harry understands. Lupin could have just as easily flung 
the same accusation at Harry "I'm the Chosen One and Dumbledore 
Liked Me Best and I Only Work With My Two Best Friends" Potter.

Carol:
> Nor does Lupin ever answer either Harry's question about James's
> opinion of Lupin's plan to abandon his wife and child or his 
question
> about how the new regime would regard a "half-werewolf" (DH 214),
> instead spluttering "How dare you?"--always the recourse of a 
person
> who feels insulted but has no other defense.

Magpie:
If Lupin already feels guilty about putting his family in danger, 
it's not surprising he'd be taken aback by the idea that what he 
really wants is a way to put them in more danger. I imagine Harry 
would have answered the same way if somebody had told him that his 
father ought to be condemned for defying Voldemort--if he hadn't 
been so concerned with personal glory by defying Voldemort he 
wouldn't have put his family in danger. 

Hell, Harry's pretty forgiving of Sirius' trip to the MoM--I don't 
think he believes that was just Sirius chasing glory and wanting to 
die heroically. Or how about Harry himself--how would he react to 
the charge that he went to the MoM himself because he really he 
wanted the personal glory and didn't care that it put his friends in 
danger, given that we know he felt guilty about putting them in 
danger? I think he might respond with an inarticulate, "How dare 
you...!" too.

Carol:
> Could Lupin have calmly and truthfully said, "James would have
> approved of my actions?" Probably not, since James stood by his 
wife
> and child, going into hiding with them rather than openly fighting
> Voldemort and died trying to protect them." Nope. 

Magpie:
James wasn't the one drawing Voldemort to his house, Harry was. 
James stayed with Harry--iow, he stayed with the danger. If James 
were the one Voldemort were after, he probably wouldn't have been 
staying with him. He would have been openly fighting Voldemort like 
a mad thing--or not even fighting, just saying "I'm over here!" to 
get his attention away from Harry. So yeah, I think James might have 
understood and even approved of Lupin's actions if given that 
hypothetical scenario. Or at least he might have done the same thing 
himself.

But this isn't really about James. Lupin's not claiming to be there 
because he owes it to James, that's just something he throws in as 
an extra thing he's doing good. He's really there because *he* hates 
himself for the situation he feels he's caused, he fears having 
passed on his own curse and he wants to be part of the fight against 
Voldemort--which ties back to the same danger and curse. Frankly, 
what James would or wouldn't think doesn't really matter. The guy's 
been dead from his own mistakes for years now. This is the time for 
other people to make theirs. Harry doesn't even much care what James 
thinks, he's speaking for himself.

Carol:
How about the new regime's attitude toward
> half-werewolves? Oops. Can't answer that one without harming his 
own
> case or uttering an obvious falsehood, either, so he ignores the
> question and turns on Harry. Lupin resorts to defensiveness, 
excuses,
> furniture-throwing, and spell-casting. Why? Because he's in the 
wrong
> and he knows it.

Magpie:
I don't think it harms his case much. It's a reason to do nothing--
which appears to be a popular choice in the WW but I don't hold it 
against Lupin that he's not totally embracing it. The difference 
between Lupin the werewolf married to Andromeda's daughter and Lupin 
the Order member (which he already is) doing something for the 
Resistance somewhere while married to Andromeda's daughter doesn't 
seem enough to be a deal-breaker for me. Given how little anybody's 
doing I must respect Lupin's impulse to be proactive here for any 
reason. 

Carol: 
> Lupin does not make a case for why they need his help, nor does he 
say
> a word about doing what he can to fight Voldemort. 

Magpie:
Nor does he need to, imo. He's an adult, and a competent wizard, and 
committed to bringing down Voldemort. It's insane that more people 
aren't volunteering to do this instead of waiting around for Harry 
to do something (with the occasional secret practical joke that 
mildly inconveniences a DE that they can smirk about over the water 
cooler). He doesn't need to have some special power to vanquish 
Voldemort. He's competent, intelligent and willing. Between him and 
Ron on this journey I'd say Lupin seems the more valuable.

Carol:
*Later,* he fights
> in a battle against Death Eaters to make the WW a better place for 
his
> son, but at this point, the only emotion he feels toward his unborn
> child is a kind of fear and loathing--"What if it's like me?" 
Exactly
> how deserting that child and its mother, a la Tom Riddle Sr.--is
> supposed to help them, I don't know. We've already seen Tonks lose 
her
> Metamorphmagus powers. Now she's likely to lose her powers 
altogether,
> like Merope, because the man she loves won't stand by her. 

Magpie:
Except he's not leaving his child like Tom Riddle Sr. at all. He's 
believes he's thinking about exactly this wife and child. And his 
wife, even if she gets mopy again, has a support system so the child 
will not wind up in an orphanage and Tonks won't be starving in the 
street (there's something bizarre at how Tonks started out the 
independent young female auror and wound up being most often used as 
a parallel to...Merope Gaunt). Tom Riddle ran away traumatized and 
never left his house again. Lupin is going to fight something that 
directly threatens his son. I just don't see how it can just be 
considered abandonment when the fight is tied up with the danger. 
He's fighting for the very civil rights for his son he feels guilty 
about having taken away from him by fathering him. If Lupin had gone 
with Harry and died I wouldn't be surprised if Teddy group up 
thinking up a great hero for that.

Carol: 
> Harry has no choice but to leave the underage Ginny behind. Having 
her
> with him would increase her danger (as she tacitly acknowledges by
> accepting his decision). 

Magpie:
Harry's situation and Lupin's are different, sure (though I don't 
think her age matters that much). But Ginny doesn't just tacitly 
admit that having her with him would increase the danger, she 
proudly compliments him for being the kind of guy who has to be 
fighting Voldemort. She's drawn to Harry because he's not the guy 
who is going to sit at home waiting for somebody else to kill 
Voldemort. The main difference seems to be that it's understood 
Harry and Lupin are supposed to be fulfilling different roles for 
their girlfriends--Harry's the action hero who plays by his own 
rules and comes home to his reward; Lupin's the long-suffering man 
to be loved into happiness and health.

Carol:
But Lupin does have a choice, and
> accompanying three of-age wizards to "protect" them rather than
> standing by the woman he married and the child he fathered is the
> wrong decision. He endangered Tonks by marrying her and Teddy by
> bringing him into existence, and since he can't undo those 
mistakes,
> he has a moral obligation to rectify them as best he can by 
protecting
> his family until the moment comes when he can openly and actively
> fight the enemy that menaces them.

Magpie:
He's not denying he has a moral obligation to rectify the danger he 
put them in by caving into the original pressure to marry Tonks. He 
has a different idea on how to discharge that duty, and I can see it 
both ways. You think he ought to sit with them and hope Harry's 
making some progress (which he isn't most of the time) until the 
time when somebody in his position is officially supposed to fight. 
He thinks he ought not to be married or wait for the danger to come 
to his family's door. 

Since there really isn't some official signal for a guy in Lupin's 
position, I think a case can be made on both sides. I mean, why 
would one assume there would be some moment when he can openly and 
actively fight if he can't now? Why does it occur at Hogwarts? What 
if it never came? Voldemort's already taken over the country. How 
long is one supposed to keep one's head down? It was really only 
author's machinations that made people somehow able to do nothing 
and also all become war heroes.

Carol:
 There is no point whatever in his
> joining HRH, increasing everyone's danger and unhappiness. By
> remaining with Tonks, he not only does his duty as a father but 
honors
> his obligation to love and cherish his wife (and enables her to 
love
> and cherish him, giving him the happiness and self-esteem that he
> lacks troughout the books). 

Magpie:
I can't agree there's no point. I think every adult in the Order 
(and not in the Order) ought to be working on this. I don't think 
the job of cherishing his wife and building up his self-esteem is 
more obviously important than the Dark Lord having taken over his 
small country. I think he's attempting to build up his self-esteem 
by joining the fight. Obviously what Harry says turns out to be the 
answer to Lupin's problems, but that made the whole storyline 
incredibly pointless as far as I could see. 

Carol: 
> Lupin's conscience always bothers him when he's too weak to do the
> right thing (stop his friends from tormenting Severus, tell 
Dumbledore
> that Sirius is an Animagus, etc.). The only time we see him happy 
is
> after he's returned to Tonks. Why? Because for once ESW!Lupin had 
the
> moral courage to do the right thing.

Magpie:
Well, Lupin's done what *you* think is the right thing, and maybe 
what the author thinks is the right thing, but an equally strong 
case could be made for Lupin doing the right thing by fighting. 
Everybody just assumes that being with Tonks (either in HBP or DH) 
is what Lupin really thinks is the right thing deep down when it 
could just as easily be that staying with her is what he thinks is 
wrong and leaving her was the one time he screwed up his courage to 
do right. 

That was the thing that was his own idea, after all. That's the one 
place in canon where he's going *against* what his friends want him 
to do. Going back to Tonks was Harry's order, and he used all the 
usual things that work with Lupin to make him do it: he shamed him, 
rejected him, and witheld friendship from him until he complied and 
like a good wolf told Harry he was right. 

Maybe Lupin just gave up and agreed to stick his nose back in the 
book rather than get involved with a fight he felt he ought to join 
because that's the way to stay in the Marauders. Lupin's being happy 
doesn't mean he's stood up to his friends--the happiest times of his 
life were when he was overriding his own sense of right and wrong 
regarding his illness and basking in the companionship of friends.

 
> Carol, who thinks that in a battle between Bellatrix and Lupin,
> Bellatrix would win

Magpie:
Maybe, maybe not. If Lupin was in werewolf form, I think she might 
be toast. But if Lupin's so useless in a fight maybe he'd have been 
more help hunting for Horcruxes rather than staying home to protect 
his family. It's a bit odd to have the whole country taken overnight 
and then hold it against one of the few adults joining up to fight 
and saying his real place is at home loving his wife and letting her 
love him--kind of turns all those WWII love songs on their heads. 
Isn't domestic happiness more usually what's sacrificed in wartime? 
In the WW it almost seems like when people spend the most time at 
home. Even if the guy was abandoning Tonks because he wanted to 
sleep with other women and hated kids I'd seriously consider 
accepting his help. 

-m