Realistic Resolutions - WAS: Slytherins come back

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 180732

> Pippin:
> But they can't overpower dementors or inferi, nor can they
> maintain wizarding secrecy if Voldemort uses his full power in
> London. As long as people are more afraid of those things than
> they are of Voldemort's regime, he has an advantage. In Stalin's
> time, many were more afraid of Hitler or of resurrected Czarism
> than they were of him.

Mike:
Well, there were no inferi and why would they have to overpower the 
dementors? Dementors aren't particular who is in charge, they'll 
accept DEs and collaborators as feed as easily as they accepted 
Muggleborns.

More concerned for wizarding secrecy than their loved ones? Really? 
Do you see that as an actual internal conflict for the Ministry 
sheep? If so, that proves their actualization of this ovine 
behaviour better than my examples.

Who's regime were the Ministry workers more fearful of returning or 
taking over than Voldemort's? Fudge's? (What ever happened to that 
portly bowler-wearer?)


> Pippin:
> Why didn't the passsengers of three 9/11 planes rise up against
> their hijackers? Because they'd been trained to believe that the
> way to safeguard lives was to cooperate. Unlike the people on the
> fourth plane, they never had a chance to learn otherwise.

Mike:
Yes, I think I said that JKR didn't have time or didn't want to waste 
the ink showing how the Ministry was cowed and/or indoctrinated into 
believing there was no hope of fighting. That's my way over covering 
what I otherwise think of as a plot hole.

And yet there were certainly hints that pockets of, as a_svirn 
explained, juvenile quality resistance that existed. That seems to 
undermine the impression that resistance is futile, they have been 
assimilated. I think JKR should have showed either less resistance, 
or shown how these few were subjucating these many through some more 
effective means. If I had seen Rowle whispering to PJ'd Harry, "Dept. 
X is getting out of line, Crucio party at 3:00", maybe I'd have 
bought that. Then again, maybe not. But you see my point?



> Pippin:
>  <snip>
> I can see the Order walking a fine line between doing enough so
> that people would not feel they had to take things into their own
> hands and provoking Voldemort into wholesale retaliation. IMO,
> they trusted that Dumbledore's plan would defeat LV without a 
> mass uprising and so it did, with a lot fewer casualties on 
> either side.

Mike:
I don't think this is about the Order at all. Or Dumbledore for that 
matter. I never got the impression that these people were aware of 
any plan nor expecting others to come to their rescue. They seemed 
ridiculously content with the conditions at hand.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180718
>
> > Mike: 
> > You may also not like that house elves are still slaves. <snip>
> > 
> > And instead of the object lesson being something about slavery,
> > it was how not to impose your beliefs on others without 
> > consulting those others to see what they want. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> I daresay she could have found a less disgusting way to
> demonstrate it.

Mike:
Possibly, but we're talking authorial prerogative and taste here. 
That doesn't change my perception that JKR wasn't looking to make a 
point about slavery, that it was fandoms mistake to draw that 
parallel.

> a_svirn:
> Besides, this way it looks like *they* impose their beliefs on 
> wizards with impunity. I mean look how happily wizards settled
> into being slave-owners. Why should they give up their beliefs
> to accommodate elves? Unless of course they have no real
> objection to slavery, after all.

Mike:
I'm not sure that I correctly understand your point here, but I'll 
attempt an answer anyway. ;) I beg your pardon if I repeat myself.

Dobby was the oddball elf. He was the one that spoke of 
"enslavement", he was the only one that spoke of "freedom". I think 
Dobby's plight was supposed to be a reflection on the Malfoys. Notice 
how JKR kept that information from us until the end of CoS?

The rest of the elves considered their "enchantment" as their being, 
their reason d'etre. This "enchantment" can be their originating 
condition, despite whatever their subsequent "treatment" was by the 
wizards. The rest of the elves treated their possible release as 
being "fired", not as achieving their "freedom".

I think Dumbledore was speaking to this "treatment" by wizards, in 
the same way Dobby was lamenting his treatment by the Malfoys. 
Despite his different outlook than his fellow elves, Dobby proved by 
his negotiations with Dumbledore that as an elf he still was 
compelled to serve a master and to seek subservience, even though he 
was technically "free".

> > Mike: 
> > They're not humans, they are magical creatures with no 
> > parallel in the real world. The same thing goes for goblins. 
> > 
> 
> a_svirn:
> Actually it doesn't. Goblins are by no means happy with the
> status quo.

Mike:
I'm afraid I may have been unclear. I was saying that Goblins, like 
elves, were magical creatures with no parallel in the RL. That's the 
way I read JKR's description of them. They were greedy, unreasonable, 
intelligent, magical creatures (from the wizarding perspective) and 
their sense of fair play eluded the wizarding mind. That's about as 
far as we were taken into the goblin world, imo. No further judgement 
was needed on their condition since they only played a bit part in 
this play.


> > Mike: 
> > You might as well condemn the WW for keeping the merpeople 
> > in the lake. They can't survive outside of that lake, 
> > however unfair that is for their freedom.
> 
> a_svirn:
> No one *keeps* them in the lake any more than they *keep*
> centaurs in the forest. They *live* there and try to keep their
> habitat safe from the encroaching wizards.

Mike:
Yes and elves *live* in wizard houses serving wizards. Without their 
servitude in the wizard houses, they are just as much fish out of  
water as merpeople would be out of the lake.

I think too many people are forgetting Winky's plight and the 
attitude of every other house elf besides Dobby in trying to 
shoehorn the house elf object lesson into being about slavery, and 
therefore a failure on JKR's part.

As for resolution, Pippin brought up a good point:

>> But as with Slytherin, it is for the Elves to decide what their 
goals are, worthy or not. Wizards need to lift the enchantments that 
make House Elves punish themselves, but that is a long term goal, 
like the cure for lycanthropy. <<



> > Mike:
> > <snip>
> > You want a big one that I just thought of? Why didn't 
> > Quirrell just "Accio Philosphers Stone" when he knew it 
> > was in Harry's pocket?
> 
> Pippin:
> This was resolved in OOP. Harry's seeker reflexes would have been
> too quick, as they were when he kept hold of the prophecy. In
> any case Quirrell does not seem to have had his wand out. Once
> he was burned I'm sure he lacked the concentration for wandless
> magic.

Mike:
Point of order <g>:
Harry used Protego to hold onto the prophesy orb against Bella's 
Accios. He didn't know this spell in PS/SS. Also, Harry wasn't going 
anywhere, Quirrell had plenty of time to draw his wand instead of 
physically attacking him. You're not suggesting Quirrell made the 
trip into the test chambers without his wand?



> Pippin:
> But as Tolkien said, it is "unexplored vistas" that make a story
> world seem real.

Mike:
Which is why I still revel in the unrevealed of the Potterverse. I 
will continue to employ my Plot Hole Filler when needed, and learn 
from others what they see from their angle.


> Pippin
> Thanking those who referenced the Kingsley canon for her.

Mike, for my part, you're very welcome :D