Realistic Resolutions - WAS: Slytherins come back

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 180748

> a_svirn:
> So what? I wasn't discussing elvish point of view. It may be an 
> interesting thing to discuss from the purely ethnographic 
> perspective, but what concerns me here is the wizarding angle. If
> I  think that slavery is abominable, I will not keep a slave only 
> because it's a done thing and they like it just fine.

Mike:
OK, I see your point now, thanks for explaining that. I would agree 
with your point if I looked upon house elves as slaves. Then it would 
indeed be wrong to perpetuate their condition simply out of 
expediancy. I would expect better from a Gryffindor like Hermione 
than to stand aside and just let slavery continue. And in fact she 
tries to do that and is shown to be wrong in her initial 
interpretation of the house elf condition. They are not "slaves".

If you (generic) insist on looking upon the house elves as slaves, 
then you (generic) are making the same mistake that Hermione made. 
That's not the way to look at them, imo. Hermione finally gets it. 
She has refocused herself on their treatment, that self-flagellation 
thing has become her focus. That was the source of her distress 
during Kreachers Tale. "Stop him -- stop him!" Hermione cried, "Oh, 
don't you see now how sick it is, the way they've got to obey?"
<p 197, US> 


> a_svirn:
> 
> Well, we didn't get to see wizards lifting the enchantments,
> did we? So, this good point belongs to the realm of fanfiction.

No, it has not been corrected by the end of DH. But one of our 
heroes, Hermione, has realized it. And she's informed Ron's and 
Harry's interpretations. Ron was right about the elves not being 
slaves, but he was enlightenment to their treatment only comes at
the end of DH. Harry has only reached the treat mine right stage,
but it's a start.


> a_svirn:
> Not exactly. Winky for all her misery did not die, as the 
> merpeople surely would without water. She even got a job. 

Mike:
Admittedly not a perfect analogy. But you can't stop elves from 
serving wizards. Well, you *can* kick them all out, deny them houses 
and life's purpose, but to what end? Does Winky's case give you a 
good feeling as to what would happen to them, especially considering 
that she *did* get another job? How'd she do in that new job? She was 
extremely happy to be *free*, was she? How about the other Hogwarts 
elves, they took kindly to Hermione's anti-slavery preaching, didn't 
they?

Telling elves they are "slaves" is as insulting to them as would be 
telling merpeople they are fish. House elves existance is to serve 
wizards, that's who they are. And they can no more deny that than 
merpeople can deny their need for water.

It was NOT a comment on slavery, it was a plea for treating one's 
inferiors with respect. Nobody is asking you (generic) to respect 
slavery, it was instead a request to respect the existance of beings 
that don't hold the same life values as you do. And to improve the 
treatment of all of them, get those self-punishment enchantments 
removed. Something admittedly only started by the end of the story.



> a_svirn:
> Yes, indeed. And notice how little wizards concern themselves with 
> goblins' beliefs and customs, and nature. Wizards do not want to
> play by their rules, do they? Because it wouldn't suit them.
> Goblins's notions of ownership clash with those of wizards, but
> they have no quarrel with elves' notions of happy servitude. So
> it's all down to wizards, not to the magical creatures. 

Mike:
Goblins were shown as greedy and unscrupulous. Griphook was fine with 
breaking into a Gringotts vault, to let Harry and co. steal whatever 
thing they wanted, as long as he could get the bigger prize of 
Gryffindor's sword back. Harry planned a letter if not spirit of the 
law maneouver. Griphook one upped him by outright double crossing 
Harry. But Neville drawing the sword out of the Hat in the end 
signifies who the rightful owners of the sword are.

Goblins aren't wizard's servants, that has been repeated throughout. 
They can take care of themselves and they aren't restricted in using 
their magic like house elves are. Curious how their biggest beef 
seems to be that wizards won't share their wandlore, at the same time 
they insist anything made with by their hand, with their skills is 
theirs to keep. And they don't seem to be sharing *their* gifts of 
metalurgy and other craftsmanship.