House-Elves again (Was: Realistic Resolutions - WAS: Slytherins come back)

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 180784

> > a_svirn
> > Is this an argument pro slavery or contra?
> >
> Carol responds:
> 
> I don't know how to answer that question. Of course, I'm not
> pro-slavery in RL. I'm saying that the human-House-Elf relationship,
> unless abused, is mutually beneficial and is not comparable to 
slavery
> in RL. I'm also arguing that House-Elves are not entirely helpless, 
as
> Kreacher illustrates. He's not about to serve a master he doesn't
> respect in any useful way.

a_svirn:
Except that he *has* to serve any such master, whether he's about to 
or not. Because he has no choice, because he is his master's slave. 
And I wasn't asking whether you are pro slavery in real life. I think 
we can take it as a given that every one on this list isn't. I just 
didn't understand how Kreacher's rebelliousness proves that human-
elves relationship is mutually beneficial. 

> Carol: 
> We agree that Kreacher and Dobby are each unhappy in their own way
> (and each finds a way to thwart his master's will), but neither of
> them is a normal House-Elf. 

a_svirn:
Well, we don't. Ok for Dobby, let's say that he's an oddity. But 
Kreacher is a perfectly normal house-elf, thank you very much, much 
more normal than some. 


> Carol:
If House-Elves are given what they want
> (like the House-Elves at Hogwarts), they're happy. In turn, they 
give
> "good service," making their owners happy. The owners, in turn, 
thank
> them or compliment them, making them happier still. The only problem
> is the enchantment that forces them to punish themselves when they
> disobey their masters. 

a_svirn:
This is by no means the only problem. In fact it isn't a problem at 
all. It is a problem for the likes of Hermione, who still can't quite 
squire the whole thing with their consciousness. But if we were to 
take elves' own perspective it wouldn't be a problem at all. Not one 
of the elves we have seen close up regards self-punishment as a 
problem. Whereas two out three elves – two-thirds of our elvish 
acquaintance – saw being compelled to serve their masters against 
their will as a problem. And Winky saw being dismissed with ignominy 
as a problem. In all three cases their status as slaves was the root 
of their problems, not the self-punishment thing. 

> Carol:
*That's* what makes them "slaves," and that's
> what Hermione is disturbed about in HBP. 

a_svirn.
I beg to differ. The fact that they are owned make them slaves. 

> Carol:
> Let *them* decide what makes them happy. That's the lesson Hermione
> learns, IMO.

a_svirn:
Let's. The goal is impossible to achieve simply by removing self-
punishment from the equation though. Considering that Hermione is the 
only one who seems unhappy about it. 
> 
> Carol, still wondering what this glorious "freedom" to be imposed on
> the House-Elves against their will would consist of
>
a_svirn:
There is no such thing as a freedom imposed against one's will, is 
there? Dismissal isn't the same thing as freedom.