House elves (WAS: realistic solutions)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 180801

> > Alla: 
> > But they also LIKE that arrangement as long as they are not 
abused. 
> > In what society is that happening to slaves?
> 
> a_svirn:
> For one thing it is a separate issue. To say they like being owned 
is 
> to say that they like being slaves. Because being owned means 
being a 
> slave. In any language known to me, at least. 


Alla:

I know I can be unclear but 
I cannot believe that I am that unclear. Please refer to Mike's 
excellent recent post to see my POV pretty much. (I mean refer not 
as reread, I see that you replied to him, but just to say that it is 
reflects what I think in much clearer language). I thought he 
described it very well, but for one more time I am going to be a 
parrot. YES. I Agree. They ARE owned. And moreover I AGREE in *our 
language and culture* they can be called slaves. That's the extent 
of my agreement though. As long as them liking to serve the wizards 
does not come into play.

And here we go again. Let me ask you - who determined that this is a 
separate issue? Canon? Because canon in my opinion does no such 
thing, so if you could provide some examples I would appreciate it. 
We hear from Ron and Twins too as Mike mentioned that elves like 
being served in response to Hermione's.  And if you determine that 
this is a separate issue, I do not accept it at all, without canon 
that is.  To me it is determinative and crucial issue to make a 
determination that something different from slavery going on. 
Something that looks like one to us, but with addition of this issue 
transforms into something different.

a_svirn:
For another, it is by 
> no means unheard of for a slave to like their lot, providing that 
> they like their master. Jim from Hucklberry Finn liked being a 
slave 
> of the Dowager. He even loved her (as his mistress, I mean). He 
only 
> ran away because she had sold him. Uncle Tom didn't mind being a 
> slave of the St. Clares. He minded it so little in fact, that his 
> name is often used as a byword for servility. And how about Firs 
from 
> the Cherry Orchard? He saw the emancipation of serfs as calamity. 

Alla:



Yeah, I know those examples, what I do not see in any of those 
examples that any of those peoples had the need of their nature to 
serve. I was waiting till someone brings up Uncle Tom LOL.

They liked it because they did not know better, because they were 
traumatized and did not know how to be free. Elves like it even when 
they ARE knowing better (have master who offers to pay them, to free 
them, etc



a_svirn: 
> In any case, their liking of being owned does NOT change the fact 
> that they are. Owned. And the fact that being owned means being a 
> slave. Honestly, every one the thousand of Solomon's concubines 
> perhaps liked to be owned by him. That doesn't change the fact 
that 
> they were concubines. 

Alla:

And who is arguing with this again as long as you are adding the 
words "in our culture"?


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180739
> a_svirn:
> So what? I wasn't discussing elvish point of view.
>
> Mike:
<SNIP>
> But how is that fair for the wizards or the elves? You seem to be
> advocating the wizards make the decision in a vacuum. To hell with
> what the elves want, wizards shouldn't own slaves. Period. <SNIP>

a_svirn:
Well, they shouldn't. But that's not exactly what I was saying. I was
saying that to use elves' inclination to serve as a justification for
slavery is not altogether genuine. Because wizards only take magical
creatures' inclinations into account because and when it suits them
(wizards, that is). When it doesn't like with Kreacher in OotP and
HBP they don't. Why should they listen to slaves <SNIP>


Alla:

AHA. So let me ask you. How do you know that wizards take elves' 
inclination to serve only when it suits them. Neither Mike no I deny 
that it suits wizards as well obviously. But I see no indication 
that wizards are not truly concerned about providing what is best 
for the elves either.

Good guys that is. Dumbledore tries to improve Hogwarts elves 
situation and offers freedom, etc. And then he does what they truly 
want, doesn't he?

What IS your solution? You think wizards should free them, whether 
they want it or not? And if possible, please answer without saying 
that this is a separate issue, otherwise we cannot go anywhere. To 
me it is not and I really really want to know what do you suggest 
they should do if it is to you human slavery,  full stop. Should 
they do what Russian tsar did and make a law that all elves are 
free ?

Suggestions?


> Mike:>
> I think the "wizards should not own slaves" position would be self-
> centered and self-congratulatory, and that it ignores the
> consequences of that stance. If Harry were to give Kreacher
clothes,
> imo that would be Harry saying, "Look at me, I'm a good person.
Just
> ignore that destitute elf I've kicked to the curb."

a_svirn:
Should we ignore a poor elf, which I bend to my will for no better
reason that I can? No, that's not true, I have a better reason. I am
a good person and I use my elf for the Greater Good, never mind that
every one of my orders is repugnant to him and causes deep distress.
I know that I am right. Because I am one of the good guys.

Alla:

I would love to know the actual answer to Mike's question, because 
to me the answer to you is very simple. Of course we should not 
ignore him and should not behave to poor treacherous bastard as we 
did. ( Disclaimer – my answer is truthful and the only reason why I 
am calling Kreacher poor treacherous bastard is because I hate him 
as a character, not as elf). And we do not do that anymore as far as 
I remember.

But should we FREE him? Should we FREE Kreacher? I mean, wizards 
should not listen to elves liking being served, right? They should 
stop being repugnant slave owners and kick those elves out. Let's 
force them to pick clothes for example. Oh wait, we already did 
that. Never mind we will come up with something else.

It is so easy to vindicate wizards, I think, but if we do not ignore 
the fact that elves indeed LIKE to serve, it gets a little bit 
harder. To me anyways.

JMO,

Alla