House elves and some spoilers for Swordspoint WAS: realistic solutions

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 180812

> Magpie:
> We're not, I don't think, claiming to have a practical solution. 

Alla:

That's amazing. You do not claim to have a practical solution, but 
you nevertheless castigating wizards for maintaining status quo? 

Basically the current situation is bad, there is no way to make it 
any better, but current situation and wizards are bad nevertheless, 
because if we look only on part of what is going on it reminds us of 
human slavery.

Magpie:
We're, 
> describing the situation as it is. House Elves are slaves. Slavery 
> being bad is of course an opinion. 


Alla:

No, you are not IMO. You are not describing situation as it is. You 
are taking part of what is happening with house elves and which 
looks as human slavery and claiming that is bad and everything else 
for some strange reason which I cannot understand becomes a separate 
issue. But if we add to 
this the house elves wanting the situation to remain as is, picture 
becomes different IMO.



Magpie:
> I obviously don't know enough to say exactly how to go about it. 
> However I do reject the idea that they can't be freed period, or 
that 
> Wizards can't free them because they care so much about House 
Elves 
> welfare.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Okay then, you do reject the idea that they cannot be freed period. 
How can they be freed without causing them further harm? Further 
harm to elves I mean?


Magpie: 
> Wizards don't make decisions based on that, they make decisions 
based 
> on what's good for themselves. House elves' desires go along with 
> theirs so they accomodate them. Goblins' don't, so they don't 
bother 
> themselves about upsetting them by imposing their own views. 
Werewolves 
> are just as bereft without jobs as House Elves, but Wizards pass 
laws 
> against them working (even though that is potentially even more 
> dangerous because werewolves get hungry).

Alla:

That's just not what is happening in canon IMO. Some wizards clearly 
care about what is happening to house elves - about their desires, 
some wizards do not. Those who care portrayed as good guys, those 
who do not - as bad guys. 

Just as some wizards care a whole lot about what is happening to 
werewolves, and some do not give a d*mn.

But say none of the wizards cares about what house elves want. Let 
me stress - there is no way I am conceding this, since I can name at 
least Dumbledore and Hermione who care very much IMO, but let's say 
none of them does for the sake of the argument.

Who cares if it is so? Whether wizards take house elves' desires 
into consideration - that IS house elves' desire, even if wizards do 
it ONLY for wizards' benefit, idea which I do not share, I think it 
is mutual benefit.


Magpie:
> Imo the biggest barrier to House Elf freedom isn't that it causes 
> problems because there are unemployed House Elves (not sure 
exactly 
> what kinds of problems that would cause for Wizards anyway) but 
that 
> Wizards don't want it that much. That's why they back down so 
quickly 
> in the face of what House Elves want on this issue where they 
don't 
> back down to Goblins or Werewolves or Giants. So they haven't even 
> tried to find an alternate solution.

Alla:

What alternate solution? And how do you know that this is why they 
back down so quickly and not because they do care? Dumbledore 
offered freedom to ALL Hogwarts elves, do you think that maybe when 
he backed down he indeed was truly concerned about House elves needs?



Magpie:
 Who knows what would happen if 
> House Elves were brought up with freedom? The other Elves were 
> disgusted by Dobby's situation (still serving, but free and paid) 
but 
> he's alive until he's stabbed to death. Winky feels disgraced and 
her 
> disgrace leads to self-destructive behavior, but she doesn't die 
either.

Alla:

But this was horrible what was happening to Winky IMO. Are you 
saying that solution would be to put all house elves through what 
she went?

And as I said, for the longest time I thought that Dobby is a sign 
of something different than I think now, but even he comes back to 
work?

And I wonder how would you even free House elves? Are you suggesting 
to force them to take clothes for example?