House elves, surprisingly ;-)

[Goddlefrood]

No: HPFGUIDX 180948

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180932

> >>Goddlefrood, offering a reasonable alternative word to use 
> > and anticipating none would use it ;-)

> >>Bex:
> > I hope it catches on. EVANS, maybe? (Elves: Vassals Are Not 
Slaves?)

> >>Magpie: (Slaves)

Betsy Hp:
I vote to keep "slaves" too. If Goddlefrood (or Bex) could give 
me an example of how house-elves are *not* slaves (and no, being
a "happy" slave doesn't count: Jim was happy with the widow), 
then I'll entertain the idea that house-elves aren't, well, 
slaves.

Goddlefrood:

Well, you see, I'm not and have never argued that house-elves are 
not slaves, as indicated in post #178858. Therein I had said:

"That both are slaves - a working definition of which would be a 
being that works for a master without payment - is not really an
issue."

The both being house-elves and humans.

What I have been doing is pointing out that there are certain 
differences between real world slaves and those of the fictional 
world of Harry Potter and offering alternatives to the words 
being used (whether or not I agree with my own posts). Those 
include that house-elves are not human, there is no evidence 
from the books as to house-elves being traded (relocated, yes, 
but not traded). I have also pointed out that the elves are 
based at least in part on hobs. Hobs are creatures that are 
tied to a location, and that point will be returned to later 
on.

In: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180943

Shelley:
I have a problem with the idea that House Elves are not traded, 
or with the idea that they are not sold. We are told directly 
that only wealthy families own them, and that right tells me 
that the original house elf slaves might have been bought somehow, 
and that their price must be high.

Goddlefrood:

That's a lot of mights. They might have had a huge market at 
the beginning of wizard time where all the house-elves then 
alive were auctioned off to the highest bidder. The folklore 
behind elves would suggest otherwise. Whether elves are based 
on hobs or brownies or a combination of both (as seems likely), 
I think they are supposed to be tied to a location as well as 
to a family. It makes sense that if a house-elf family originally 
belonged to a particular location then that house-elf family 
would attach itself to any wizarding family that resided nearby. 
As this happened many centuries ago it further makes sense that 
the older wizarding families would have an elf. That older 
families also tend to be the richer and higher strata familes 
in a society is not an unreasonable proposition and is generally 
(although not always) true. That hobs resided out in the less 
inhabited parts of the benighted isles, as did and do wizards, 
it is not unreasonable to suppose that the older wizarding 
families would have an elf / hob attached to it as its, well, 
slave ;-).

We also have no information on how house-elves came to be 
enslaved (and the use of that word iks canonical - pace Dobby 
in CoS). I suggest that they were enslaved to assist with the 
hiding of the wizarding world from Muggles. They became resigned 
to their lot on the whole, all bar one (Dobby). A program of 
re-education would be needed in order for the elves to change 
their mindset from one akin to a slave to one that embraces 
freedom. As stated ad nauseam by many, the wizards should be 
the ones to take the initiative in freeing the elves as there 
is no movement within the elfdom to free themselves.

So, there's no need to think that house-elves were originally 
bought, that's the thing.

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180945

a_svirn:
We simply do not know whether they are traded or not, so I don't 
think it really can be used as an argument.

Goddlefrood:

Of course it can, and what is set out above is just as reasonable 
as any other argument being put forward. Quite simply, however, we 
don't and can not know the origins of house-elves because there is 
too little information in canon to help draw adequate conclusions. 
Any argument is viable, iow.

Goddlefrood, out to prove nothing, just discussin'