House elves and some spoilers for Swordspoint WAS: realistic solutions

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 180960

Magpie:
> > > It seems to me more like slave is the first thing we think of 
> > > because that's what it is, but since Harry's doing it and 
> > > slavery is kind of icky-sounding we've got reason to try to 
> > > find some other word to use. 

Alla:
> > No, it is more like some of us (myself, since I cannot speak for 
> > aybody else) do not equate it with real world slavery no matter 
> > who is doing it Harry or anybody else.
 
> Magpie:
> You're right it's not real world slavery--it's fantasy slavery 
> where the slave is magically compelled to obey you, for one thing. 
> But I haven't seen anybody show that it's actually different than 
> slavery in the way it works. What they've said is that it "feels 
> different" if the slave wants to serve--and that's perfectly true 
> for human slaves as well. 
> 
> Sorry, I don't mean to claim to know someone's innermost thoughts 
> and motives as to why they want a different word. It's just that I 
> don't see how the arguments that it's truly different than slavery 
> (be it slavery by Romans, Americans or Martians) hold up when 
> describing house elves. 


SSSusan:
What I object to is the, to me, rather offensive assumption that this 
is all a reaction to HARRY, the implication that people who have 
taken the view that I have [about wishing there were a different 
term] are such shallow readers that we are incapable of handling 
anything negative pertaining to Harry.  So that when we encounter 
something icky that good ol', sweet ol', Hero Harry is doing, we 
can't "compute" and so go scrambling for some way to explain it 
away.  That bothers me.  

I do adore Harry.  But I am also pretty good at being able to take in 
and acknowledge "good people do bad things sometimes" and avoiding 
turning-a-blind-eye bias. (In real life, I'm also pretty good at 
separating myself from the bias one sometimes sees in athletic fans 
when they yell at refs every time calls are made against their 
team.)  IOW, I don't believe I see things through Rose-Colored Harry 
Glasses even though I love the kid.  In this whole discussion, I have 
been focusing on the ELVES and how I see them, how I read their 
natures, wishes, words and actions, and from THAT came the desire for 
a different term.  It had nothing to do with wishing I could make up 
some softer word to get Harry's ass off the hook.

Also, for me anyway, it was simply a *wish* that there had been a 
different word or term, not any kind of "demand" that other list 
members cease to use the term slavery if that's the word they believe 
fits.  I mean, I get that you don't see the arguments that house elf 
slavery is fundamentally different than RW human slavery, but because 
you don't doesn't mean that others do not see it.  Nor that it isn't 
a bit obnoxious for us to read the view that the whole rationale for 
discussing the perceived difference or seeking different terminology 
came from our inability to handle anything negative that Harry was 
doing!

We don't have to agree about whether what house elves face is a 
perfect match for human slavery in the RW, but it would be nice to 
not assume bias or blindness on "the other side."  

Siriusly Snapey Susan,
who truly would've been happy if the institution of House Elfhood had 
been eliminated somehow, as she does think the whole setup is pretty 
nasty, even if she doesn't see it precisely the same as human slavery