House elves and some spoilers for Swordspoint WAS: realistic solutions

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 180962

Betsy:
> This trying to come up with a less loaded word strikes me as ducking
> the question. It's philisophically lazy, IMO.

SSSusan:
Wow.  And I don't see it as philosophically lazy at all!  I see *any* 
attempt to delve into an issue and struggle with its nature and 
definition as a respectable endeavor.  I see it as a willingness to 
work at it; I don't at all see it as walking away or refusing to 
look.  In fact, quite the opposite for me – grappling with this makes 
me think hard and struggle, NOT avoid those things, so I don't find 
philosophically lazy in the slightest.


Betsy:
> Then why are those arguing in support of house-elf slavery using the
> exact same arguments those in support of African-slavery used back 
> in the day? They're happier as slaves, they're not at all like us 
> and so have different needs, they're really more like animals than
> anything. (I believe Fredrick Douglas was equated with a dog trained
> to walk on its hind-legs.)

SSSusan:
For one reason, because we have seen house elves who have been 
offered freedom and DID NOT WANT IT.  I seriously doubt the human 
slaves *themselves* said they were different from white folks, were 
happy as slaves or didn't want change.  We *do* have elves who say 
they want to serve, don't want to be free and who demonstrate when 
given a legal out [e.g., Hermione's knitted hats, etc.] that they do 
not want it.  

I am decidedly NOT using the arguments used in 1700-1800s America 
*the way those arguments were used* then.  Of course those were 
excuses, and the slaves weren't speaking for themselves.  We have a 
mixture of wizard ("master class") comments and elf comments and 
actions to go on in HP.  


Mike:
> My way of reading the house elves is that they are magical creatures
> with this imperative to serve humans and human households. NOT that
> they were compelled to do so by humans, manufactured by humans, or
> otherwise forced to be slaves by humans. That house elves as slaves
> is a natural condition for them in every sense of the word 
> "natural".  I have no proof of my opinion, that's just the way I 
> read enchantment. That they are slaves for the same reason that 
> merpeople are aquatic beings, they just are.

SSSusan:
Thank you.  This is part of if for me, too, Mike.

Carol:
> The thing is, we don't *know* that House-Elves' nature is 
> "culturally induced." (Isn't that a contradiction in terms, in any 
> case?) We don't know whether the enchantment that binds them to a 
> particular family is breakable through anything except giving them 
> clothes. And giving clothes to a House-Elf who regards clothing as 
> the mark of a disgraced Elf is simply not going to work.


SSSusan:
I agree.  It's inconclusive from canon, though we also have people 
*saying* it's their "nature."  True, it's wizards like Ron who say 
this, but it's not like the Weasleys had a house elf that they'd 
spent decades abusing and needed to have an excuse for saying it. 
<veg>  Is there a reason why what we see and hear from the elves, 
coupled with comments from wizards, can't indicate the possibility 
that their alleged nature is their nature?  


Pippin:
> The situation as of HBP is unfair to the elves, as I think everyone 
> agrees. Thus our moral discomfort with it.

SSSusan:
Absolutely.  I'm not *comfortable* with it at all.  I'd like to see 
it eliminated.  I'd like there to be a way for house elves to be 
*convinced* of the wonderful benefits of being free, that they could 
still serve if they desired to, but that they could do so as free 
elves and hopefully for pay.  Like Pippin said, no one so far knows 
how to accomplish it.  This, to me, speaks to that difference between 
house elves and human slaves.  


Betsy:
> Part of the charm of the series was supposed to be the connection 
> to the RW I'd thought.

SSSusan:
For some, I'm sure that's true... but there has never been agreement 
amongst HpfGUers over how much that connection "should" matter, nor 
the degree to which different fans focused on that.  Heh, for me, I 
thought part of the charm of a fantasy series like HP was the escape 
it provided from the RW.

Siriusly Snape Susan,
who also appreciated Mike's example of the moving staircases 
vs. "stairs." :)