House elves and some spoilers for Swordspoint WAS: realistic solutions

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 180996

Carol earlier:

> > The only kind of "will" that House-Elves seem to have is to serve
a master that they think is deserving, which is why Dobby and 
Kreacher rebel in their respective ways. Dobby wants to be a "Free
Elf"--free to serve Harry Potter (and/or work for Dumbledore to earn
just enough money to buy socks. He doesn't want too much time off
because he "likes work better"). Kreacher, too, likes to work and does
it voluntarily once he and his new master come to a mutual 
understanding. Winky hates her "freedom," and uses it to become a
miserable drunkard because she wants to return to her beloved master.
> 
Magpie responded::
> A will to serve a master they think is deserving is a perfectly fine
will. It's one they share with plenty of humans. It's a will that 
they're unable to assert when they're owned by somebody else.

Carol again:
But you concede that they *want to serve Wizards*, right? And I
*don't* think that "plenty of humans," Muggle or Wizard, share that
will. (Most of us work because we have to earn money, and, yes, we
prefer a reasonable and kind employer, but that's not the same thing
as *wanting to serve a Wizard master,* preferably one who doesn't
abuse them, which is the only thing that House-Elves want. A vacation
home in Majorca? Lots of chocolate for me to eat? A trip to the zoo? I
don't see any House-Elf expressing any desire except to 1) escape the
cruel treatment of the Malfoys or 2) serve the Wizard of their choice
or 3) in the case of odd-ball Dobby, buy socks. They aren't human.
they don't think like humans. They aren't caught up in our selfish
desires for entertainment, material goods, and personal satisfaction.
We don't even see a House-Elf pining for a loved one *other than* a
human master.
 
> Magpie:
> Dobby and Kreacher both want freedom when they don't want to serve
their masters--<snip>

Carol:
Kreacher wants freedom? Canon, please? I seem to recall Sirius Black
saying in OoP that Kreacher would be distraught if he were offered
freedom (not to mention that it would be dangerous to give it to him
at that point). And we saw what "freedom" did to WinkY/ What makes you
think that Kreacher, deprived of his home in 12 GP and the portrait of
his old mistress, would be any less disturbed? He doesn't want
freedom. He just wants the renegade "criminal" Sirius Black to dry up
and blow away. He was perfectly happy serving Sirius's parents and
brother, and, once Harry shows respect for Master Regulus, he's
perfectly happy to serve him and *voluntarily* cleans himself and
starts acting like a Hogwarts House-Elf. He now has what they have:
decent working conditions and a master he can respect who won't abuse
him, psychologically or otherwise. He's not the least bit concerned
about being owned, any more than the Hogwarts House-Elves are. He
belongs to 12 GP exactly as they belong to Hogwarts. And they like it
that way.

Magpie:
These other things like the right to vote or open a business or start
an eel farm aren't freedom.

Carol:
They're not? I thought that living in a free country meant the right
to vote and the right to seek (but not necessarily find) the
employment of our choice, the right to start a business, etc. Funny
thing: House-Elves don't want any of those *human* rights. They only
want to serve Wizards, preferably Wizards they respect who won't abuse
them. I guess you're saying that the Wizards who open business, say,
the Weasley Twinsd, or start an eel farm like the witch in GoF aren't
free? (She was also free to bet her eel farm on a weel-long match,
poor thing!)

Magpie:
 Sure they don't want to be abused either--neither do most free people. 

Carol:
No one, not Wizards and Witches, not Muggles, not House-Elves, not
Mrs. Norris, not even Scabbers or Trevor, wants to be abused. Nor is
anyone arguing that they do.

Magpie:
But Dobby even *uses* the word free to describe what he wants.

Carol:
"Even Dobby"? I would say *only* Dobby, the oddball House-Elf.
However, if the Malfoys had not abused him, chances are, he'd be as
happy to serve as any other House-Elf, including Winky and the
reformed Kreacher, whose reformation is, BTW, entirely voluntary.

Magpie:
> It's so important to him that Harry puts it on his tombstone. It
changes the way he's viewed by every character. How is it not freedom
because he's a free person who likes to work and that his work
consists in large part of domestic chores?

Carol:
What changes the way Dobby is viewed is his eccentric disposition and
views. Nevertheless, except for his unusual opinions, which the other
Elves don't want to hear, and his extremely odd clothes, he is no
different from any other House-Elf. He serves Wizards (Harry,
Dumbledore, and, apparently, Aberforth). He cleans the Gryffindor
common room when no one else will. He does the same work for Harry
that Kreacher does, tracking Draco Malfoy, and does it better. The
"slave" Kreacher chooses to provide only useless information,
sabotaging his human master, just as he sabotaged Sirius in OoP. He
*stops* sabotaging Harry and serves him willingly in DH. His status
has not changed. He is still owned. But he now respects Harry and
serves him as willingly as the "free" Dobby does and as willingly as
Winky served the master she wants to return to. ("Freedom" robbed
Winky of happiness and a purpose in life.)

"How is it not freedom because he's a free person"? Now there's a
circular definition for you! If you mean, how is Dobby not free, I
would say that he's free by Elf standards, having been accidentally
given clothes by his owner thanks to Harry's trick, but he still
serves Wizards, and he still punishes himself when he disobeys his new
employer, Delores Umbridge. Contrast what a freed human slave would
do, given the chance--and assuming that he had the education to do
something other than scrub floors or work in a kitchen (no offense
intended to cooks and manual laborers). Take an educated Greek slave
in ancient Rome, for example. He'd find the best job he could, make
money, buy a house, get married and start a family--the things that
humans do. "Free" Dobby doesn't make such choices, either because they
don't interest him or because they're not available to him.

Do you think that freed House-Elves, sent to a school like Hogwarts to
learn to be human, would change their nature? I don't, nor do I think
that such an education should be imposed upon them. They have their
own magic, they don't use wands, and such an education would either be
wholly useless or would impose Wizard values and the Wizarding way of
life on creatures who have a different psychology and culture from
humans. *They don't want to be human.* They don't need or want to be
"free." They only want freedom from abuse, not freedom from ownership.
Most of them want to be part of the same family or household (counting
Hogwarts as a household) as their ancestors (cf, kreacher and Winky).
The "free Elf" Dobby is an anamoly. No other House-Elf wants what
Dobby wants (and gets). Imagine Kreacher or Winky or any other
House-Elf running around in odd socks and a tea cozy. It wouldn't
happen. (Winky shows what she thinks of her cute little outfit by
allowing it to become burned and stained.) Note that Kreacher makes
the *choice* to clean himself up, serve HRH real food (where he got
it, I still don't know) and magically scrub the pots and pans. Again,
his status as a House-Elf owned by Harry has not changed, but his
attitude and behavior have come full circle because he respects his
master. House-Elves like to work; they like to serve Wizards and
Witches (but not Muggles or Goblins or other House-Elves). All that's
required to make them happy is a master who understands what
House-Elves want.
> 
Carol earlier: 
> > All a House-Elf wants (and that includes the so-called Free Elf,
Dobby) is a Wizard master or mistress that he can respect and who
treats him well. *Why not listen to the House-Elves* and believe what
> they say (or what their actions show)?
 
> Magpie:
> I don't see how you're believing them when Dobby has asked for 
freedom and you're claiming that what he really wants to be is a  slave. 

Carol:
*Please* don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that he wants to be
a slave. That's your word. I said that *he wants to serve Wizards*, as
canon aptly demonstrates. To repeat, Dobby serves Dumbledore for what
we would call "slave wages" (he's talked him down from more money and
more time off--"Dobby likes work better") and he voluntarily serves
Harry. (He's also in as much danger from disobeying Umbridge as a
Hogwarts-owned Elf would be if it occurred to them to thwart her).
Again, why not believe not only Dobby, who likes work an chooses to
serve Wizards, but all the other House-Elves, including Winky,
Kreacher, and the Hogwarts House-Elves?

As for the other House-Elves, they are perfectly happy being owned.
Even Kreacher doesn't give a fig in Hades about being owned. He's
happy to serve Wizards that he respects, the Black family other than
Sirius or the reformed Harry (for lack of a better word--Harry's
changed views and behavior precede Kreacher's change of heart and
voluntary resumption of his House-Elf duties. In fact, I'm sure we're
seeing Kreacher as he was before Voldemort poisoned him.)


With Dobby, at least, he does say that he wants freedom. Secondly the
right to serve a master or mistress that you can respect requires that
you be able to choose your master, which they can't do as long as
they're slaves. <snip>

Carol:
No, it doesn't Kreacher doesn't choose Harry. He learns to respect him
when Harry learns to understand and respect him. Kreacher is still
owned, and not by a master he's chosen. What's required, perhaps, is a
course at Hogwarts in House-Elf psychology and some lawas against
House-Elf abuse. What's not required is "freeing" the House-Elves
(which can only be done, so far as we know, by giving them clothes),
which would only upset them. Let them live in the houses they belong
to and serve Wizards, which is all that they know how to do or want to
do, even if they're "free" (as shown by both Dobby and Winky). If
possible, find a way to lift the enchantment that makes them punish
themselves.

As for choosing their masters, how do you propose that they should do
that? I doubt that most House-Elves (Hogwarts Elves, Winky, Hokey, the
reformed Kreacher) want a different master, but if they do, are they
supposed to wander the WW for a year as Dobby did before they find
someone who will hire them for pay? Much better to leave things as
they are, eliminating only the abuse and the self-punishment enchantment. 

Listen to the House-Elves. They don't want to be "free." They don't
want clothes. They don't want money. They don't want vacations.

They are not us. they are magical creatures whose nature is to serve
Wizards and who like it that way, thank you very much.

Carol, who prefers to use the term "House-Elf ownership" rather than
"House-Elf slavery," which may resemble human slavery in some respects
but is by no means equivalent, magic and the nature of House-Elves
making a significant difference