Harry Potter is Anti-Woman

[susanmcgee48176]

No: HPFGUIDX 181015

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tiger_queen429"
<tiger_queen429 at ...> wrote:
>
> I was a huge fan of Harry Potter. I loved the interesting world and
> all the characters in it. It's just the more I think about them,
the
> more I feel that the books are very anti-woman.

I disagree. I think JKR would say she was a feminist. She believes in
women's equality. She believes in women's choices. She believes that
women can be smart, popular, and be in a successful relationship with
a man, AND have a job. The examples would be Ginny -- who for gosh
sakes ends up as a professional Quidditch player -- and Hermione who
has a career as a lawyer in the MoM. They both ARE attractive to men -
 Ginny, especially...but Hermione has NO problems getting a date,
there's not just Viktor, Cormac is quite willing to go out with her...

I think JKR is one of those feminists who believe women can have it
all...children, career, partner, and be happy.

It's not quite the way I think of feminism, but that's one of
feminism's strengths, the ability to incorporate different
viewpoints...

snip

 >Harry Potter is set in what I can best describe as an
> idealized version of the United States in the 1950's.

Uh...no. I lived during the 50s in the United States, and know all
about the idealized version.

 >Women can be
> smart and successful as long as they do not even think about
marriage
> or a family. Women are either mothers or workers; they can't be
both.

Uh..no. In the 50s in the United States, women were expected to be
stay at home mothers or they were lesser. Women who had to work, or
who absolutely wanted to work could be: elementary school teachers
(never administrators), maids, secretaries, and a few other menial
occupations. They were seen as lesser. The New York Times had help
wanted/male and help wanted/female categories. Girls were explicitly
taught NEVER to be seen as as smart as boys, and ALWAYS to lose to
boys in games or in any other competition.
Women were NOT allowed to be smart and successful. Of course, there
were those that were...

But the REAL woman was home, not working outside the home, taking
care of her children and her husband, and NOT aspiring to anything
else. That was success...

Those women who DID work outside the home were expected to
demonstrate in all kinds of different ways that they still deferred
to their husbands, and that their husbands were still in charge.



>
> Lily Potter:

snip


> She has no identity outside the men in her life. The only contact
we see Lily
> having is with James's friends: the letter to Sirius and tea with
> Bathilda. Where are her friends other than Snape? Did she get
married
> then drop all contact? Sirius was James's best friend. Where are
> Lily's best friends? We have all this talk about Lily being great
> magical abilities, but that amounts to nothing.
snip
Lily has nothing. She's
> portrayed only as Snape and James's sex object and as Harry's
mother.

I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that Lily is Snape and
James' "sex object." They were both in love with her and wanted her
as a partner. Sex was just part of it. Women who are seen as "sex
objects" are women who men want to have sex with, and don't want any
other kind of relationship with... Period. They don't want to marry
them, they don't want to share their lives with them...
His love for Lily was the defining element of Snape's life. That's
not just about sex...

We know that Severus is Lily's best friend. She makes reference to
all of her friends not understanding her friendship with Severus. She
has friends. But of course she doesn't see them during the time we
hear about. She and James are in hiding, and they're both isolated
from their friends in the larger community.

>
>snip Tonks:
> Tonks was an interesting character in OP. Then she loses all of her
> coolness.
In your opinion. My opinion is that having issues and problems about
relationships does not make one lose one's coolness...

> In OP, Tonks is not a real woman, because she can't manage
> any household spells and is pretty clumsy.

Huh? She's not a real woman? By whose standards? She's a great auror,
and a powerful woman. Where is it written that if she can't manage
household spells, she's not a real woman?

snip


> In DH, she
> is happy because she is pregnant, but can no longer take care of
> herself. Even though she is an Auror; she has to live with her
> parents because Remus does not have a way to support herself.

We don't know that. Maybe she's on parental leave from the MoM, and
maybe they're still paying her. We know Remus doesn't have any money,
but she might have had savings of her own. Maybe she's living with
her parents for the connection and support it gives her.

 Tonks
> had pretty good job, Even though Voldy has taken over, it seems odd
> that she does not have any money saved up or any other way to
support
> her family.

We don't know that she doesn't.....

>
> Ginny:
> Ginny in HBP becomes a sex symbol. All the boys talk about how cute
> she is and her brothers worry that she dates too much. She stands
up
> for Harry after he does Dark Magic and nearly kills Draco. I see
this
> as an example of Ginny being a mother to Harry, protecting by
> sticking up for him.

Ginny becomes popular with the boys - agreed..... Okay. I think she
stands up for Harry because she loves him. That doesn't make her
a "mother" to Harry. We stand up for our partners, friends, and loved
ones....

We hear that Ginny is powerful (bat bogey spells), that she has been
sneaking the brooms out of the cupboard and practicing Quidditch
since she was small.....


 >Then in DH, when everyone is arguing for her not
> to fight in the final battle, she looks to Harry, and when he says
> no, that is the final answer for now.

No. She's not "obeying" Harry. When he doesn't support her desire to
fight  she figures that she hasn't any support and will have to give
in  for the moment.


>>She does disobey Harry later,  but that is not done directly.

Okay, I don't get it. Harry doesn't want her to fight, but she does
so at the first opportunity. That's direct enough. We see her
battling Bellatrix Lestrange...she's in the fray despite the commands
of her mother, father, and Harry's acquiescence. That shows her to be
an independent, strong, and powerful girl. That's NOT an anti-woman
message.

snip

 >
> Hermione:
> Hermione is the strongest of all female characters. However, she is
> portrayed mostly as a mother, and only sometimes as a sex symbol.

So, sorry, but what are you saying here? Does she has to be portrayed
all the time as a "sex symbol" to be a real woman? What about
celibate women?

We see Wilhemina Grubbly-Plank, a working woman, who is not feminine
looking, but is obviously competent...we also don't KNOW that she
doesn't have a family or a partner.....but maybe she is single and
celibate...how is that anti-woman?

Hermione is portrayed mostly as a mother? Do you mean she mothers
Harry and Ron? Why, then, has all the fandom argued about whether she
and Harry should become lovers/partners or she and Ron should become
lovers/partners...(if she mothers them from time to time, that
doesn't mean that Ron doesn't fancy her)...

Do you mean she acts in a motherly way? Okay, she has her moments of
reminding them to do stuff, and watching over them, and taking care
of them.....that's true...but what's wrong with being motherly?

What's wrong with women taking care of others?


She
> is the voice of reason, the rule book, and the source of wisdom. In
> DH she takes care of Harry and Ron. She is the one who finds and
> cooks the food and heals the wounds. Her talents are mostly used in
> the previous books to emphasis right and wrong and to help Harry
and
> Ron with their homework (like a mother would do). You never really
> see her having fun except when she is out with Victor, but then she
> looks so different that Harry doesn't even recognize her.

So, mothers never have fun because they are taking care of
their "children?"....Maybe Hermione's idea of fun is different than
yours. She loves learning; she loves reading. She derives happiness
from that. Having fun is not just about going out dancing and
partying...

What is the problem with her looking so different that Harry doesn't
recognize her..so? Why does that diminish her having fun? (really
don't get it).

Hermione is far more than a "mother" figure. It is she who figures
out that the wizarding world MUST know the truth about Harry's
encounter with LV and Cedric's death. She has investigated, captured
and restrained Rita Skeeter, now she summons Rita to interview Harry.
She arranges for the interview to be published. This begins to turn
the tide of opinion (which WAS against Harry and DD)...people have
access to the truth in the WW, and they being to believe Harry and
DD...This is a brilliant piece of organizing, and changing the public
perceptions of the ENTIRE WIZARDING WORLD.....

Wars need strategists and public relations specialists as much as
they need warriors.

She is a planner and a strategist. She thought ahead enough to obtain
the books about horcruxes from DD's office.

But Hermione is a warrior, too! (JKR has constructed a WHOLE female --
 one who has relationships, is smart, is successful, has children,
who can fight and who can win --). She remembers, thinks of, and does
spells in combat. It is she who obscures Harry's face so that he is
not recognized by all the DEs at the Malfoy Manor...even Draco is
hesitant to identify him. In the DH, she does the glissando spell on
the spur of the moment, to get rid of the DEs who are in the trio's
way...

She is incredibly powerful and efficient on many levels (which is why
a lot of fans don't like her and put her down -- they are
uncomfortable with assertive and powerful females).

> Molly Weasley:
> Molly is seen as the ultimate mother.

Yes

 It appears that she never works
> outside the home.

And that IS okay.

 I can understand this if there is no daycare in the
> WW, but after SS/PS there is no reason for Molly not to work. She
has
> no kids at home to take care of, and the family could certainly use
> the money.

Maybe she herself wants to spend time with her children. There might
be no day care, but maybe she doesn't like day care. It's not my
opinion, but she has a right to hers.

 Snip
Susan