[HPforGrownups] Re: PS/SS chapters 13-15 post DH look

[Cassandra Wladyslava]

No: HPFGUIDX 181053

> zgirnius:
> The practice Snape assigns to Harry in OotP, as homework for the
> Occlumency lessons, and Harry never does, is, every night, to
clear
> his mind before falling asleep. If a person is sufficiently tired,
> this may occur naturally if a person just falls into bed and
sleeps
> like a log, rather than lying in bed wondering about the events of
> the day, etc.

Alla:

Could you clarify please what you meant here? I mean I definitely
thought about Occlumency lessons, but relaxation supposed to be sort
of opposite to intense Quidditch like training, no?

Or are you saying that had Harry been exercising physically he would
not have need to close his mind, that would have occurred
automatically maybe?

zgirnius:
<snip>

And it is this aftermath, I think, that has Harry experiencing fewer
dreams in PS/SS. Instead of thinking about Umbridge, and the visions,
and the Occlumency lessons and how he hates them, and being ignored
by Dumbledore, and whatever other problems Harry ahs in OotP, before
he finally falls asleep, PS/SS Harry just falls into bed,
thinks "great to finally be in bed" and sleeps like a log. This
latter is much closer to clearing his mind of all thoughts and
feelings than the former.



> Cassie:



Also, I don't think the connection between LV and Harry was as strong during
Harry's first through third year.  It probably got stronger as LV got
stronger.  As I recall (been a while since I've read the book), the
nightmare Harry had in PS/SS was just that - a nightmare.  He didn't
actually start having visions until he was in his fourth year. And the
visions were different from nightmares. The Occulmency lessons were never
meant to prevent dreams - just to block the connection between Harry and
LV.  Remember also that he would share LV's thoughts/moments/experiences
when LV was experiencing powerful emotions and when he [Harry]
was "most relaxed and vulnerable - when [he was] asleep, for instance."
(Snape. OoTP pg 531)

The "homework" Snape gave Harry wasn't in order to get him to relax so he
could sleep better, but to empty his *mind* of emotion and make it blank and
calm. It's difficult to make your mind a COMPLETE blank. You have to
concentrate a great deal, but at the same time let go and relax your
mind. It takes practice. You have to push out all the thoughts that come
into your head without thinking about pushing out those thoughts. You just
let them go.  I think Occulmency works by NOT thinking.  If you have a
memory that you want to block from a Legilimens, you don't concentrate on
blocking that memory because then you will be thinking about that memory. It
will be in the forefront of your mind and the Legilimens will have access to
it, no matter how much you don't want them to see it.  But if you can
"erase" the memory by making your mind a blank, then the Legilimens cannot
see it or at least has a more difficult time seeing it.

Another way to look at it is LV's ability to tell if someone is lying to
him.  I can imagine a Death Eater, who knows LV knows Legilimency, thinking
"please don't let him see *this*!". But because he would be trying to block
out the memory he would also be thinking about it.  LV probably would not be
able to see the memory if the DE just didn't think about it at all.

There is a problem I have with Legilimency.  The mind is not a tape
recorder.  Most people cannot, for example, remember specific features of a
person's face.  This is a common problem when people are trying to identify
suspects in a crime.  Also, the brain tends to fill things in.  Not only
that, but it is possible to convince yourself of facts so welll that that's
what you see in the memory. Like Harry's memory of "Dudley riding a new red
bicycle." (OotP pg 534).  He remembers the bike as being red and is so
convinced of this that he sees a red bike in his mind's eye. But the
bike may have, in fact, been blue.  You can also convince yourself that
other physical or verbal details that didn't really occur.  Heck, you can
convince yourself of events that didn't really occur.   Does Legilimency
take this into account?  I suppose the answer to that might go hand in hand
with a skilled Legilimens being about to decifer what he/she sees....

~Cassie - Who has often wondered if Voldemort ever had a sudden powerful
surge of teen angst or a "special feeling" when Harry thought about Cho or
Ginny.~


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