Wands and Wizards...Again

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 183656

> > Magpie:
> > And Harry learned other stuff. Harry's mind filling with anger 
and 
> > fear and making him kill whether he wants to or not and basically 
> > becoming Voldemort is not really a danger. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Harry didn't become enough like Voldemort to want to take over the 
WW,
> bwahaha! But he did become enough like Bella to cruciate Amycus.
> JKR leaves it to the audience to notice that, which is to her 
credit,
> IMO. 

Magpie:
But is is he becoming like Voldemort in any particularly bad way 
that's a danger to his soul? Since Harry never revisits this impulse 
as something bad, and goes on to have Dumbledore tell him how good he 
is, and nothing ever comes of this scene, maybe his using a Crucio 
isn't saying Harry is like Voldemort in any way he has to worry 
about. Maybe, as someone else said, he's just becoming an adult and a 
badass, or maybe it's just showing the effects of war. I think the 
whole "the good guys are becoming what they despise" that many people 
saw pre-DH was just an illusion, which is why there's no big climax 
or resolution to it. JKR doesn't credit anyone for picking up on her 
meaning when they ask her about this scene outside of the books.

There's a difference between Harry doing something like the DEs and 
that indicating a thread where Harry is in danger of becoming a bad 
guy. I just don't see that. 


> Magpie:
> > 
> > HP and SW have very opposing views on anger and vengeance, after 
all. 
> > They also lead to the opposite ending--Luke can feel the good in 
> > Vader, calls to him as his father and saves Anakin. Riddle's a 
> > psychopath and all the taunting to feel some remorse isn't going 
to 
> > make him feel it.
> 
> Pippin:
> That's your interpretation. Mine is that Riddle's not a psychopath
> once he takes his little dunk in Harry-juice. He's an ex-psychopath
> who still thinks like one, out of habit  and unwillingness to risk
> change. 

Magpie:
Okay, he gets an injection of Harry blood and therefore becomes 
empathetic (despite Harry himself doing Crucio). I don't see much 
practical difference between an actual psycho and a person who thinks 
like one because he doesn't realize he isn't one anymore, it's that 
unnoticeable. Riddle's new ability to feel remorse through the Harry 
juice does not produce any real suspense as to whether he'll turn, so 
it might as well not be there even if it's there. Vader's whole story 
is about losing his humanity and getting it back, with the important 
relationship to his son being a catalyst. He's aware of his better 
feelings. 

Pippin:
> 
> He can't manage to  kill Harry outright the way he offed Cedric a
> moment before, the way he killed James without even letting him go 
for
> his wand.  Voldie's suddenly got this urge to make it a duel. Is he
> just taunting Harry, or is there something in him making him feel 
that
> it won't really count unless Harry has some chance?  

Magpie:
Yes, he's just taunting Harry. He's done in by his own arrogance. He 
has to prove that he's better than Harry, that Harry didn't defeat 
him fairly, in front of the DEs--that's why it doesn't count if Harry 
doesn't have a parody of a fighting chance. So he plays with him like 
a cat plays with a mouse, torturing him before he AKs him. I don't 
see Voldemort displaying much compassion there. Killing Harry 
outright would have been less cruel in that scene. Had something 
bizarre not happened with the wands Harry would have been just as 
dead, despite naked!Voldemort asking for a robe when he steps out of 
the cauldron.
 
> > Magpie:
> > How does Snape calling Lily a slur that he calls all other 
> > Muggleborns teach Harry that he himself is in danger of being 
filled 
> > with anger or fear or he'll become evil?
> 
> Pippin:
> It makes him/us understand that he was able to do the cruciatus 
curse,
> say the unforgivable word, because he was filled with fury and
> humiliation. If he had  truly been acting out of need and chivalry, 
he
> wouldn't have been able to do it. 

Magpie:
Snape used the word Mudblood because he was angry and humiliated. I 
see no reason why, having seen that in the Pensieve, Harry would 
suddenly start thinking that that's why he was able to cast Crucio, 
and therefore regret his Crucio and in general see himself as having 
gone down the same path. Because I don't remember Harry making that 
connection. I don't make it either. 

Pippin: 
> Harry might never have become a DE. But in torturing Amycus, was he
> not, for that moment, just as ruthless and cruel as Amycus? He 
doesn't
> *stay* that way -- he doesn't let ruthless and cruel behavior 
become a
> habit the way Crouch Sr did. But that's not to say he couldn't.

Magpie:
Since he didn't with no difficulty, "not to say he couldn't" doesn't 
have much relevence to the story. 

Pippin:
 He
> didn't, because he saw the danger of it in the pensieve. Snape
> couldn't have one set of people that he tried to treat fairly, and
> another set that he could treat however he pleased. It didn't work. 
> It didn't work for Dumbledore either.

Magpie:
I don't see how Snape's story kept Harry from becoming Crouch, since 
he was never on that road. I also don't connect Snape's story to 
Harry regretting his Crucio or thinking he shouldn't have treated 
Amycus however he pleased (within Harry's own good guy limits), or 
regret any action he'd ever taken against a bad guy that he didn't 
regret before. To be honest, I also don't see Dumbledore or Harry 
being particularly charged with having two sets of rules for people 
they treat fairly or not. 
 
> > Magpie:
> > If Luke had used the Force to torture Yoda would have stopped him
> and  said "NO" and taken it very seriously since it's laid out as a
> huge  danger. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Yoda wasn't there when Luke used the Force to choke the pig guard on
> his way into Jabba's Palace. Dumbledore wasn't there when the
> Marauders were abusing Snape. Lupin was there, but he didn't have 
the
> guts to speak up about it.   Sometimes there's no one there to say
> "No" -- that's why we have to learn to say it for ourselves, and  
what
> might happen if we don't, including the fact that the consequences 
may
> not be immediately obvious. 

Magpie:
Luke has a storyline about his learning it, culminating in the 
big "will he stop himself from killing Vader" scene. Harry has a 
scene where he watches Snape's life story and learns that the man's 
been protecting him all along and regretted getting his mother 
killed.  There's a difference between recognizing flaws in yourself 
(on the page/screen) and recognizing the tragic flaws of other 
people. 

Pippin:> 
> The books have been out for a while. They've been read by untold
> thousands of  educators, librarians, child psychologists and 
parents.
> If the children of the world were being seduced into slavery by HP,
> I'd think the experts would have noticed by now. <g> 
> 
> There are people  warning against HP  who are so terrified of
> witchcraft that they don't want their children to even imagine 
having
> that kind of power. Okay. But most of us think that the  books teach
> about how to use power responsibly.

Magpie:
I never said the books were seducing anybody into slavery. I said 
they show their hero owning an elf slave in a cozy arrangement that 
pleases both of them at the end. That is using his power responsibly 
in this story. I can describe that situation in canon the way I see 
it without making hysterical claims about the books making previously 
anti-slavery 21st century kids pro-slavery for humans. Many people 
are offended by the idea that Kreacher would even be called a slave 
since he's happy. Hey, Harry's just respecting Kreacher's wishes 
there (now that Kreacher's wishes have changed).
 
> > Magpie:
> > He saves Dudley at the beginning of OotP after he's just been 
> > fighting with him.
> 
> Pippin:
> True. But he had to drive the dementors off anyway, to save 
himself. I
> give Harry full marks for helping Dudley to get home. But he wasn't
> putting himself in any more danger by doing it.

Magpie:
Harry's already had a scene where someone who has made his life 
miserable is beset by danger and he saves his life. He's already 
shown us that his impulse is to protect the kid who's bullied him if 
that kid is in danger. He's already shown the bravery to put himself 
in mortal danger or sacrifice something important to himself to 
rescue someone else, even someone who isn't special to him. It's a 
different situation, even more dramatic and heroic, but not 
particularly new behavior for Harry.

-m