Did you LIKE Snape?

[littleleahstill]

No: HPFGUIDX 183137

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> We've had a recent thread that mourns the passing of Snape. I 
don't, 
> but that led to this query. In the interest of full disclosure, I 
am 
> a Marauder fan and Sirius Black is my favorite character. So I am 
> naturally biased towards despising one Severus Snape. OK, now on 
to 
> the show. ;-) 

Leah: In the interests of full disclosure I am not a Marauders fan.
 
> 
> In that respect, I too liked Severus Snape. I too wanted to know 
why 
> he was the way he was. I even color myself slightly disappointed 
that 
> his love for Lily was the *only* driving force that propelled him 
to 
> do what he did for Harry and the good side. I wanted to see 
something 
> more. Maybe some of you did see more, if so maybe you could cite 
some 
> canon for your belief? 

Leah:

Things I can think of off the top of my head not related to Lily:

Attempting to save Lupin's life during the seven Potters chase 
(against DD's orders not to risk a break in cover)

Saving Neville from being crushed by Crabbe in Umbridge's office

Agreeing to kill Dumbledore (doesn't help Harry, and makes Snape 
into a reviled traitor)

Taking the Unbreakable Vow to try to save Draco Malfoy (yes he's 
going to kill DD anyway, but he doesn't have to put his life on the 
line for a year in the process).

Saving those he could from Voldemort as he says in response to DD's 
question re watching people die.

Giving Ginny and co detention with Hagrid;in fact becoming 
hesdmaster of Hogwarts for what must have been a terrible year in 
the hope of being able to give some protection to the students.    

> 
> For me, I've adapted myself to the Magpie school of interpreting 
> canon: if it's not in the book, it didn't happen. Some will say 
that 
> Snape took up Dumbledore's banner not just for Lily, but because 
he 
> had some epiphany about Voldemort. I say I expected that to be 
part 
> of his change, but I didn't see it. Up until the very end, all we 
> were shown was that Severus did it all for Lily. The Doe Patronus 
> followed by his answer to Dumbledore: "Always"; his keeping Lily's 
> signature and tearing her picture from James and Harry to take out 
of 
> 12 GP. Do you have some canon that can convince me that Snape had 
> some other motivation besides Lily?

Leah:
I think the doe patronus is partly 'getting at' Dumbledore.  
Dumbledore has just told him Harry, whom Snape thought he was saving 
for years, is in fact just a sacrifice waiting its time.  I think it 
could be a 'who cares about the greater good, old man, this is what 
I'm in it for' regardless of whether that is actually true or not.

I have to ask though, if Snape did do it all for Lily, so what?  Is 
a right action only right if you do it for a truly noble reason? 
Would a pilot who had no interest in politics, but who fought in the 
Battle of Britain because his wife had been had been killed by a 
German bomb, be any less brave or have done any less to defeat 
Hitler, than a pilot who joined up because he wanted to be part of 
the fight against facism?  

Dumbledore fights for 'the greater good' partly because of his past -
 Arianna and Grindelwald.  Molly's brothers were killed by 
Deatheaters.  Sirius escapes from Azkaban because James' son is in 
danger. Narcissa betrays Voldemort to save her son. Regulus takes 
the horcrux because of the way Voldemort treated Kreacher.  Even 
Harry says he wants Voldemort dead 'because he killed my mum and 
dad'.  Why does Snape have to meet a higher standard of nobility and 
selfless action? 

I think part of the problem is that Snape is one of those characters 
who grew beyond the author's intent and control.  By the end of HBP, 
even if you didn't like Snape, he was a force to be reckoned with 
and so readers wanted there to be some great reason around him being 
DD's man Then because in the end everything hinged around Snape's 
request to Voldemort and Lily's choice, in DH he had to be forced 
back into a mould he had long broken, hence the frustration with the 
Lily focus which really seems out of character for the Snape we had 
come to know.

> But that wasn't my question, was it? ;-) I wanted to know if you 
> liked Severus Snape.

Leah:
Yes, very much.

 > If you were in the Potterverse, would you be mates with him? If 
your 
> answer is yes, is it unqualified? That is, would you have been 
mates 
> when he was just pre-Hogwarts, during Hogwarts as a student, only 
> after he returned to Dumbledore to plea for Lily's life, or do you 
> have no qualifications? If your answer is no, are there times in 
the 
> life of Severus Snape that you wouldn't have minded being around 
him? 
> If you wanted to be more than mates with Severus, umm, ... I don't 
> want to know! ;-)

'Mates' is a word for blokes isn't it?  Sorry, it conjures up for me 
beer-drinking sessions and going to watch the match together.  I 
would have beem quite happy to be Severus' friend, pre-Hogwarts, at 
Hogwarts and afterwards.  As to the Deatheating period, that would 
depend on what he thought he was getting himself into and why, and 
whether he could be persuaded out of it by a proper friend.  

I suspect I'm approaching the question slightly backwards. I don't 
read the books and think 'would I like to be friends with Snape?', I 
like Snape because he is the sort of person I like in the real 
world - darkly funny, snide, intelligent, good at what he does, 
protective. 



> 
> Is there any part of his behavior you disliked, abhorred, or just 
> thought was a little too over the top?

Leah:
He can be extremely petty and vindictive. But, sadly, funny at the 
same time.
  
> You see, I'm curious. I could never understand the attraction. I 
> guessed, as did practically all of us, that Snape was ultimately 
on 
> the good side. But there were too many things about him for me to 
get 
> past to like him. I didn't take Lupinlore's approach that his 
> teaching was child abuse, but I did agree with Alla that it was 
> abhorrent behavior. And though I laughed at some of his wittier 
> lines, that didn't supplant my dislike for the overall character.

Leah:
His teaching really didn't bother me that much, though there were 
clearly some occasions when he was OTT.  When I first encountered 
Snape, I thought immediately of my old geography teacher.  There 
were a lot of teachers around when I was at school who used sarcasm 
etc as a teaching tool, and of course we only ever see the Harry 
filter. I had ones who were a lot more unpleasant than Snape, and 
did not teach as effectively as he obviously does in general (see 
Umbridge's comments)  As I got progressively more irritated by Harry 
as the series progressed, it was hard to be too down on Snape.   



 
> I didn't place most of the blame on him for James's and Lily's 
> deaths; in fact I put him third after LV and Pettigrew. But he 
does 
> get some blame there that cannot be expunged in my eyes. That he 
was 
> redeemed for that act, that he spent the rest of his life serving 
> penitence for that mistake, does not make me like him for it.

He can be blamed for becoming a Death Eater, but once he's become 
one, taking the prophecy to Voldemort is what he ought to have 
done.  There seems to be a feeling that Snape should have had some 
sort of epiphany about the prophecy as opposed to anything else he 
did in Voldemort's service. In my view, taking a scrap of rather 
dubious prose, which could mean any number of things, if it means 
anything at all, to the only person actually identified in it, ranks 
a long way behind knowingly betraying your friends and their child 
to death, and actually killing two defenceless people and attempting 
to kill a baby. By the way, where does Dumbledore, who let Snape 
leave Hogsmeade with that scrap of prophesy, rate in the blame 
stakes?   


> I have a particular revulsion for the Snape in PoA, in the 
Shreiking 
> Shack scene. I've expounded on that enough, I won't continue to 
bore 
> you. Funnily enough, I was most entertained by Snape in PoA, too.

I just don't understand what is objectionable about Snape in the 
Shrieking Shack.  To save some children who have put themselves into 
danger, he rushes to a place where he was nearly killed by a 
werewolf, to face both the man who is going to transform into the 
werewolf in question, and a man Snape believes to be a loyal Death 
Eater and a mass murderer.  That is an extremely brave act. Yes, he 
should have listened to what was being said,and not let his emotions 
get the better of him but neither Black nor Lupin, who should have 
been talking to him in an adult way,  were helping, saying that 
Snape 'deserved' the Prank and that the joke was on him again.     

> 
> I get that some people identify with Snape, just like lots of 
people 
> identified with Harry and I identified with Sirius. Did that make 
you 
> like Severus, or understand him, or both?

I don't think I identify with him, i just like him.  I certainly 
wouldn't have given up my life for someone who chucked me over for 
my worst enemy, so DH Snape is probably a more loyal and better 
person than I am.  

Leah