Did you LIKE Snape?

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 183159

Mike wrote:
>
> We've had a recent thread that mourns the passing of Snape. I don't,
but that led to this query. In the interest of full disclosure, I am a
Marauder fan and Sirius Black is my favorite character. So I am
naturally biased towards despising one Severus Snape. OK, now on to 
the show. ;-)

Carol responds:
Of course, that bias works the opposite way as well. For a reader
predisposed to like Snape, it's very hard to like the Marauders,
especially after SWM. A reader predisposed to dislike him, OTOH, will
probably take the Marauders to his heart and excuse their bullying and
arrogance as youthful folly. There's no undoing someone else's
emotional reaction. The best we can do is try to understand it, as you
seem to be doing.

Mike: 
> JKR admitted Snape was "a gift of a character", and I'll second
that. Whatever your leanings I don't see how you could not be
entertained by the enigma that was Snape. JKR made sure we would all
want to know where exactly Severus stood and why he stood there, as
much as we wanted to know what was going to happen to Harry. For some
of you, maybe more.

Carol:
Exactly. I can't speak for anyone else, but I very seldom identify
with Harry, but from the beginning I couldn't help feeling a certain
fondness for a teacher who speaks of his own subject in glowing,
poetic terms and dares to refer to students who don't understand and
appreciate it as "dunderheads." Real-life Muggle teachers can't do
that these days, but anyone who has ever taught a required course that
some students dislike must know the feeling and *wish* they could say
it. And what teacher or former teacher wouldn't envy his ability to
get the students' attention simply by walking into the room? And, of
course, it's always fun to read about a mysterious, ambiguous
character about whom the protagonist appears to be wrong. (Shades of
Jane Austen.)

Mike: 
> In that respect, I too liked Severus Snape. I too wanted to know why
he was the way he was. I even color myself slightly disappointed that
his love for Lily was the *only* driving force that propelled him to
do what he did for Harry and the good side. I wanted to see something
 more. Maybe some of you did see more, if so maybe you could cite some
canon for your belief? 

Carol:
Without having read the other responses, I'm at some risk of repeating
what others have said. But I think that Snape never does anything
halfway. Once he's decided, not only to risk his life to save Lily's
and, later, to continue to protect Harry so that Lily's death won't
have been in vain, he purs all of his considerable intelligence and
ingenuity into the project. He really does become Dumbledore's man ("I
have spied *for you* and lied *for you*, put myself in mortal danger
*for you*" DH Am. ed. 687). Admittedly, he says that it was all
supposed to be to keep Lily Potter's son safe, but that isn't all he
was doing. He was opposing Voldemort and, as he says in OoP, "finding
out what the Dark Lord is telling his Death Eaters"--not always in
relation to Harry. We know that Snape told DD that LV had assigned
Draco to murder him--nothing to do with Harry. We know that Snape
stopped the curse caused by the ring from killing DD immediately and
would have done more if DD had let him--nothing to do with Harry. The
same is true of agreeing, with great reluctance, to kill Dumbledore if
necessary. The arguments DD uses to persuade Snape have nothing to do
with Harry (or Lily). Nor does Snape's new penchant for saving any
life he can save (DD's, Katie Bell's, Draco's, Lupin's and others that
must have occurred earlier, off-page) have anything to do with Harry
or Lily. Just as he decides on his own to remain at Hogwarts with
Dumbledore rather than flee when Voldemort returns, he decides to save
lives that DD doesn't even know about. ("How many people have you
watched die, Severus?" "Lately, only those whom I could not save.")
The words indicate a change of heart, a change of perspective, a
change of principle, a change from passive observer to active
participant, undoing evil caused by others whenever he can--as we
first see when he opposes Quirrell and saves Harry from his
countercurse, going well beyond the instruction to "keep an eye on
Quirrell for me" given him by DD.

Mike: 
> For me, I've adapted myself to the Magpie school of interpreting 
canon: if it's not in the book, it didn't happen. Some will say that
Snape took up Dumbledore's banner not just for Lily, but because he 
had some epiphany about Voldemort. I say I expected that to be part 
of his change, but I didn't see it. 
> Up until the very end, all we were shown was that Severus did it all
for Lily. The Doe Patronus followed by his answer to Dumbledore:
"Always"; his keeping Lily's signature and tearing her picture from
James and Harry to take out of 12 GP. Do you have some canon that can
convince me that Snape had some other motivation besides Lily?

Carol responds:
Voldemort is trying to kill the woman he loves, and young Snape vows
to do "anything" to prevent that. After Lily's death, which DD has
failed to prevent, Snape could easily have left Hogwarts in bitterness
against DD (and found some other way to avoid Azkaban) or just used
DD's protection as he claims to have done as a means of avoiding
imprisonment. Instead, he agrees, despite fierce anguish, to help
protect Harry when Voldemort returns--which means that he must also
oppose Voldemort--Lily's murderer--in any way he can. It amounts to
the same thing. (Harry's reasons for opposing Voldemort are equally
personal, starting with "Voldemort killed my parents!") There is also,
of course, the question of Snape's own courage. He refuses to run away
like Karkaroff. And I think that part of him enjoys acting, testing
his skill at lying and spying without detection, and "hoodwinking"
Voldemort, the formidable Legilimens, with his superb Occlumency.
True, it would be nice to see *principle* enter into it more clearly,
but I think that Snape's risking his cover by saving lives that he
didn't have to save, especially Lupin's, is sufficient to show that
he's not just doing it all for Lily, whatever he himself may believe.

As for loving Lily, I think we need to consider what Lily seems to
represent for Snape (as opposed to the "real" Lily, who may not have
been quite what he thought she was). The Patronus is pure and
beautiful and wholly good, and Snape is not only trying to atone for
his role in her death by protecting her son but fighting, risking his
life, much like a medieval knight for his "lady" (often someone else's
wife), for what he believes her to represent--the opposite in all
respects of Voldemort, whose selfish will to power and desire for
immortality contrast with Lily's self-sacrifice and love. Snape may
not wear his heart on his sleeve (or his lady's token on his lance
like a medieval knight), but his Patronus shows what he values and
what he is fighting for and what he thinks he has lost in Lily's death.

Mike: 
> But that wasn't my question, was it? ;-) I wanted to know if you
liked Severus Snape. I don't want to know if you liked having his 
character in the books, I've already said that I liked having Snape 
in the books and I hate the guy. I'm not really asking if you 
sympathize or empathize with him. Heck, I sympathize with the young 
Severus in the playground with Lily, per-Hogwarts. No, what I want to
know is if you *liked* Severus? 

Carol:
Yes, I like him. He's my favorite character, and even when he's in the
wrong, I still like him (which is different from approving his
actions. "I see no difference" is cruel and probably indefensible, but
 it's not nearly as bad, IMO, as Harry's much crueler and equally
indefensible Crucio). I love his snarky lines, especially against
Sirius Black, Umbridge, and Bellatrix. I love his courage and the way
he sweeps out of doorways. I love his courage and his willingness to
risk his own life (and soul) to protect Draco's. I can't get enough of
him and I only wish he were in more scenes, especially OoP, where his
working against Umbridge remains in the background until almost the
end, and in GoF, where he seems to be almost replaced as DD's
right-hand man by "Moody"--a situation that he no doubt resents but
does not complain about to DD (in contrast to Trelawney's compliaints
about "the usurping nag"). 

Mike: 
> If you were in the Potterverse, would you be mates with him? If your
answer is yes, is it unqualified? That is, would you have been mates
when he was just pre-Hogwarts, during Hogwarts as a student, only 
after he returned to Dumbledore to plea for Lily's life, or do you 
have no qualifications? <snip>

Carol:
That's a hard question. I'm pretty sure that I would have been Sorted
into Ravenclaw, so I wouldn't have had to deal with the
Gryffindor/Slytherin mutual antipathy. I'd like to think that if I
were his age and shared any classes with him that I would have
recognised him as gifted and would have at least been civil to him,
maybe befriended him if he'd let me. It's hard to say, of course, but
as we're dealing with entirely imaginary scenarios, I'll say that, for
my part, I would have been his friend. What he really needed, though,
was guidance, and neither Slughorn nor DD provided him with that. Had
I been his fellow teacher, I would have treated him with the respect
and cordiality that we see from McGonagall before she finds out that
he's a former DE (the Dark Mark that he reveals to Fudge)--and I hope
that I would have believed in him *because* of that gesture and for
other reasons (his opposition to Quirrell and Fake!Moody, his actions
for the Order, his saving of Harry's life) and not just on
Dumbledore's word. He *needed* friends and genuinely trustworthy
confidants other than Dumbledore. Secrecy was his downfall, as it was
DD's.

Mike: 
> Is there any part of his behavior you disliked, abhorred, or just
thought was a little too over the top?

Carol:
Abhorred? No. Disliked? The remark about Hermione's teeth previously
mentioned is about the only instance. Over the top? His reaction in
the Shrieking Shack *seemed* so--until we learn that he thought that
Sirius Black betrayed Lily to her death. After that, it's quite
surprising that he mastered himself and instead of killing SB or
turning him over directly to the Dementors, he conjured a stretcher
for him (along with the unconscious Trio) and took him to the proper
authority, Fudge. It's interesting to note at exactly what point
Snape, who is usually in command of himself and the situation, loses
control. And we see in those situations exactly how much anger and
resentment he is holding in at other times.

Mike: 
> You see, I'm curious. I could never understand the attraction.

Carol:
I think, for some of us, it was instantaneous. That poetic speech
about Potions either grabbed you or it didn't. As for his questioning
of Harry on that first day of class, I think he had every reason,
given the hope of some DEs that Harry was a Dark Wizard that they
could rally around, to find out exactly how much Harry knew or didn't
know. Granted, taking a point from him for not helping Neville was
completely unfair, but it was only a point. And he also had every
reason for being exasperrated with Neville. I suppose that reactions
to that first scene cemented our feelings about Snape. If we really
liked Harry and our overall impression was Snape's unfairness, we
hated Snape. If we empathized at all with Snape and felt that there
was something more to this mysterious, almost Gothic character than
Harry could see, we liked him. I can't explain it any better than
that. I only know that I wanted to see more of Snape and find out
whether he really viewed spell-casting as "silly wand waving" and
whether he could use a wand as well as he could make potions. CoS
showed me that he could. Loved the Duelling Club and putting Lockhart
in his place!

Mike:
> I guessed, as did practically all of us, that Snape was ultimately
on the good side. But there were too many things about him for me to
get past to like him. I didn't take Lupinlore's approach that his
teaching was child abuse, but I did agree with Alla that it was 
abhorrent behavior. 

Carol:
Compared with Umbridge's or even Filch's idea of what detention should
involve, I'd say that his were pretty tame. And his behavior always
reminded me of that depicted in books about nineteenth-century
education. Compared with the schoolmasters we encounter in the various
Dickens novels, Snape's teaching methods are pretty tame. And, as has
often been noted, he always tells the student, whether it's Neville or
Harry, exactly where he went wrong in making the potion. (Too bad he
never does the same for Ron, but maybe he has no hopes for Ron's
improvement, or no concern for his progress.)

Mike:
And though I laughed at some of his wittier  lines, that didn't
supplant my dislike for the overall character.
> 
Carol:
At least you appreciated the wit. For me, it's part of his attraction
as a character--that and his talents and courage and obvious
intelligence and little things like the way he moves and speaks. I
always downplayed the ugliness as Harry's impression, exaggerated like
the size of Hagrid's hands or Madame Maxime's feet. We don't get that
same impression in the objectively narrated "Spinner's End," where we
see the thin face, sallow complexion and curtains of black hair, but
no hint of abhorrent ugliness. The beautiful Narcissa Malfoy, after
all, throws herself at his feet, cries on his chest, and, IIRC, kisses
his hands. There seems to be something magnetic and powerful about
him, and even those who dislike him sense it.

Mike:
> I didn't place most of the blame on him for James's and Lily's 
deaths; in fact I put him third after LV and Pettigrew. 

Carol:
I agree.

Mike:
> But he does get some blame there that cannot be expunged in my eyes.

Carol:
Or his own. He spends the rest of his life trying to atone for a sin
for which he can never forgive himself. And yet he did what he
could--going first to LV to ask him to spare Lily and then to DD to
ask for his help. Had it not been for Snape, Lily would not have had
the chance to live that gave her self-sacrifice the power of ancient
magic and had it not been for Snape there would have been no Fidelius
Charm (which would not have been breached if DD or Black had been the
SK). 

Mike:
> That he was redeemed for that act, that he spent the rest of his
life serving penitence for that mistake, does not make me like him for it.

Carol responds:
No one *likes* him for that act though many of us *forgive* him for it
(as does Harry). We like him for other reasons--including his snarky
personality and his intelligence and his courage, and it's just fun,
if we forget for a moment what has just happened on the tower and what
it means for both Harry and Snape, to see him so easily parrying all
of Harry's curses. (What did he do during the Battle of Hogwarts
before LV murdered him? How did he fight for the good side without
letting the DEs know what he was up to? That's what I want to know.)

Mike: 
> I have a particular revulsion for the Snape in PoA, in the Shreiking
Shack scene. I've expounded on that enough, I won't continue to bore
you. Funnily enough, I was most entertained by Snape in PoA, too.

Carol:
I've already given my reaction to that scene and the reasons why I
believe that Snape's behavoir there was over the top--and then
mastered. He thought that he was dealing with a murderer (and his
werewolf accomplice), the very man who had, he thought, betrayed the
Potters to their deaths after all his (Snape's) efforts to prevent
that. I'll say here that I think Sirius Black had been a convenient
scapegoat, someone onto whom he could displace some of his own guilt,
much as Harry displaced some of his own guilt for Sirius's death onto
Snape. Finding out later that the traitor was really the despicable
and lowly Wormtail must have been a disappointment. Snape can treat
Wormtail with contempt, as we see in "Spinner's End," but he's
unworthy of active hatred.

Mike: 
> I get that some people identify with Snape, just like lots of people
identified with Harry and I identified with Sirius. Did that make you
like Severus, or understand him, or both?

Carol:
Both, as explained above. (BTW, I only partially identify with him.
I'm not snarky, but I'm certainly entertained by *his* snarkiness!)

Mike: 
> Please, explain to me the attraction!
> 
> Mike, who hopes that Carol gets her computer back before all the
good lines are taken ;-)

Carol:
Thanks, Mike. I deliberately didn't read anyone else's response before
posting mine, and I hope I used or referred to enough "good lines" to
help you understand the attraction without feeling it yourself. (I
think part of it has to do with being female.) BTW, the Sectumsempra
scene is another that I really like because it reveals the healing
skills touched on off-page with DD and Katie Bell, skills that Madam
Pomfrey doesn't have because she knows nothing about Dark magic. Makes
me wonder whether Snape could have done anything to help Bill's
werewolf bites or George's ear had he been given the opportunity.

Carol, still very behind on everything and so unable to search out
favorite Snape quotes for Mike's delectation