Muggles v wizards redux

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 183267

Magpie:
Yes, a Muggle might have killed somebody too. And been persecuted for
it. But that's a different point than the fact that Wizards think of
Muggles as inferior beings and even benignly treat them as such.

Alla:

Um, yes it is a different point. I mentioned it initially in response 
to your argument that you would not want wizards deciding what is a 
fair punishment for hypothetical you who did something wrong to 
wizard. Or how I understood your argument.

I was saying that I disagree and that if muggle did something wrong 
to wizard, muggle should be punished. I understood you saying that 
you want muggle to be off the hook, but then you said that you think 
that muggles should get fair trials, so we seem to be in agreement.

Magpie:
Her justifications aren't irrelevant. That's what makes her
different. Sure kids lie to their parents. They don't just think they
have to  do so because their parents are dummies who can't handle
the truth. Hermione knows she's got a ton of power over her parents
and it's her right to use it. There's no way that doesn't just
fundamentally change the relationship--and in this universe there's
nothing balancing that out.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Her justifications are irrelevant **to me** for the purpose of this 
argument exactly because I do not buy that they are different, for 
the most part anyways. You seem to be saying that she lies to her 
parents because their muggles and because she can. And I am saying 
that she lies to her parents because almost every teenager thinks 
that they know better and does so at some point of their lives.

Magpie:
<SNIP>
Teenagers lie to their parents, they don't think of their parents as
if they are the children who need to be protected unless there's
something seriously bad going on. And since everyone knows that
teenagers will try to lie, there are generally some systems in place
to help their parents. Not so if your child is a Wizard. Wizarding
adults will take care of it.

Alla:

Really? Lupin is not Harry's parent of course, but it seems to me 
that by yelling at him and sending him to his wife and kid Harry was 
trying to do exactly that among other things , protect him. I mean, 
he wanted him to go back to his wife and child of course, but also to 
protect him IMO.

Magpie:
Yes, it's known to them anyways. That's an important thing for any
parent. Ron's parents actually know a whole lot about what's going on
with him, and his not telling his parents about the mission is a good
example. Ron's parents agree to him going on a mission they don't
know everything about. They know some basics and Ron's 17 by that
point and almost an adult. They can talk to each other as adults and
agree, and they go on living their lives. The Grangers are
brainwashed.  <SNIP>


Alla:

I cannot find the canon for Grangers not knowing the basics, 
actually. People keep saying that Hermione did not even tell them 
that Voldemort is back and I just cannot find it. It may exist and 
you may be right, but I would like to ask for a page, please.


Magpie:
<SNIP>
Given that we've got consistent examples of Hermione not sitting her
parents down and telling them anything, that seems highly OOC for
Hermione. I think she'd also have said that if that's what she did.
They would have been part of the plan, they'd have argued, they'd
have wanted to help, they'd have taken a long time to get ready to
leave. (The fact that she has to give them a false idea that they
want to go to Australia also makes it seem like she's manipulating
them.) It's presented as just part of Hermione's plan. When it comes
to plans her habit is doing it without telling anybody until
afterwards. <SNIP>


Alla:

She also did not say that she sneaked up on her parents and 
obliviated them without them agreeing to it. It did not even come to 
me the first time that she could have done so, but I do not see her 
specifically mentioning it one way or another.

Do not get me wrong – if she did do so without her parents consent, I 
of course would think that it is wrong and condescending of her. But 
number one even if she did and as I said I am not sure I believe it, 
this one accident to me does not raise to a **pattern** of Hermione 
treating her parents any differently than other teenager.

Alla:
> See, I do not think it should have any influence whatsoever. I think
> muggles should have a right to persecute a wizard who breaks muggle
> law and vice versa. If murderer who cannot do magic may be hurt by
> it, I won't cry much.

Ceridwen:
If you mean through the justice system, then I agree with you. If
you mean a random wizard taking it on himself or herself to punish
someone they think perpetrated some crime or wrong, then I disagree.
The possibility of mistaken identity is too great. <SNIP>

Alla:

Well, both. Meaning that of course if that existed in RL I would say 
through justice system, but also I meant that if in the book you 
would feel okay with wizard punishing wizard with some sort of carmic 
justice, if that other wizard really did something wrong, I do not 
see that it is not okay to do the same to the muggle. My murderer 
example still holds for me. 


Ceridwen:
<SNIP>
They don't know about the
petrifications, they don't know about Voldemort's return (or,
probably, about Voldemort), they don't know about the escaped
criminal Sirius Black possibly being at the school, they know
nothing, because their only source of information is Hermione, and
she isn't telling them.

Alla:

Same question here. Are you sure that they do not know all that? Are 
you sure that they have no authority to withdraw her from school? I 
thought some muggle parents did, but I have to double check.

Ceridwen:
<SNIP>
As far as Hermione sitting her parents down and explaining things to
them, there are two things wrong with this scenario. 1: Hermione
has never done that before. Why now? 2: This is the ***child***
sitting the ***parents*** down, not the other way around. Children
don't sit parents down to spell things out. Period. That is the
height of disrespect and condescension on the part of the child. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, sure, change the wording to Hermione sitting with her parents or 
whatever sounds less condescending. Substantively it does not change 
matters much for me, honestly.  I see no proof that she sneaked up on 
them and just obliviated them. IMO of course.

Alla