Muggles v wizards redux

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 183270

> Magpie:
> Her justifications aren't irrelevant. That's what makes her
> different. Sure kids lie to their parents. They don't just think 
they
> have to  do so because their parents are dummies who can't handle
> the truth. Hermione knows she's got a ton of power over her parents
> and it's her right to use it. There's no way that doesn't just
> fundamentally change the relationship--and in this universe there's
> nothing balancing that out.
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Her justifications are irrelevant **to me** for the purpose of this 
> argument exactly because I do not buy that they are different, for 
> the most part anyways. You seem to be saying that she lies to her 
> parents because their muggles and because she can. And I am saying 
> that she lies to her parents because almost every teenager thinks 
> that they know better and does so at some point of their lives.

Magpie:
But the only reason Hermione can actually be the one who knows better 
is because they are Muggles and because she can (and feels little 
guilt in doing so). Maybe Ron thinks he knows better than his parents 
at times--his parents tell him otherwise. They have actual power to 
back up their authority, even if their teenagers will sometimes get 
away with stuff. The threat of parents finding out is a real and 
present possibility for all the Weasleys and what their parents think 
is something they consider all the time--not just in terms of what 
they'd want them to do, but how they feel. The respect the kids have 
for their parents informs how they treat them--which is why Percy's 
storming out and not accepting Christmas presents is so condemned.

Hermione can and does assume the role of the authority in the family, 
more and more, to the point where she's changing her parents' entire 
life "for their own good." If Hermione is like a normal teenager 
she's a normal teenager run amock with no boundaries and no 
consequences who's inflated sense of importance is validated 
everywhere she goes. (Regarding Muggles--Wizards set boundaries for 
themselves of course.) It's not like whatever she decides to do re: 
her parents is ever challenged by anybody. If you take Wizarding 
family relations as the norm, Muggleborns are even weirder. 

> Magpie:
> <SNIP>
> Teenagers lie to their parents, they don't think of their parents as
> if they are the children who need to be protected unless there's
> something seriously bad going on. And since everyone knows that
> teenagers will try to lie, there are generally some systems in place
> to help their parents. Not so if your child is a Wizard. Wizarding
> adults will take care of it.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Really? Lupin is not Harry's parent of course, but it seems to me 
> that by yelling at him and sending him to his wife and kid Harry 
was 
> trying to do exactly that among other things , protect him. I mean, 
> he wanted him to go back to his wife and child of course, but also 
to 
> protect him IMO.

Magpie:
I don't understand what you're comparing here. Lupin never helps out 
any Muggle parents. He considers himself to have some authority over 
Harry as a Wizard adult, as I said. Harry isn't condescending to 
Lupin, he just fights with him and offers his opinion. Lupin is then 
free to agree with him or not. That's all Harry did was tell him what 
he thought of Lupin's behavior--and refuse to include Lupin in his 
group, which was obviously Harry's right. 


> Magpie:
> Yes, it's known to them anyways. That's an important thing for any
> parent. Ron's parents actually know a whole lot about what's going 
on
> with him, and his not telling his parents about the mission is a 
good
> example. Ron's parents agree to him going on a mission they don't
> know everything about. They know some basics and Ron's 17 by that
> point and almost an adult. They can talk to each other as adults and
> agree, and they go on living their lives. The Grangers are
> brainwashed.  <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I cannot find the canon for Grangers not knowing the basics, 
> actually. People keep saying that Hermione did not even tell them 
> that Voldemort is back and I just cannot find it. It may exist and 
> you may be right, but I would like to ask for a page, please.

Magpie:
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I told you I get it from 
Hermione's behavior throughout the books--and the way Muggles are 
treated throughout the books. This isn't the first time a Muggle has 
been given a false desire to go far away (and I think there's always 
some humor in the idea). Plus I find it impossible to believe that 
anybody's parents would agree to this plan as Hermione outlines it. 
They'd insist on a backup to make sure what Hermione's weepy about 
happening wouldn't happen--iow, if she died, they'd want to know. Who 
on earth would ever agree to forget about their child completely? The 
Weasleys wouldn't--but the Grangers would? Agreeing to let their 18-
year-old go into danger if it was important yes, that I believe. This 
scenario just seems silly (not to mention unnecessary) and all the 
danger of Hermione not being remembered comes from her having full 
responsibility for it. So I fill in the scenario one way, you do 
another. But I also think she would have told us if they'd agreed to 
it--that would be part of the story she'd enjoy telling. The only way 
I can even begin to imagine how she'd convince them of this is if she 
came up with a lot of lies to make them agree, which is also 
dishonest and also in character for Hermione. 

We've been shown Muggleborns in the habit of not telling their 
parents anything that's going on (including Hermione), and no 
examples of Muggleborn parents being involved. This, btw, set against 
Wizard children consistently showing us that they discuss this stuff 
with their parents so they know where their parents stand and their 
beliefs are always informing the beliefs of their children, even if 
they sometimes disagree with them and do something else. (With Seamus 
the half-blood we hear what his mother the Witch thinks but never his 
father the Muggle--except that he was surprised when he found out his 
wife was a Witch.)

When Ron gets hurt we hear about the Weasley response--and the 
Malfoys and the Montagues and many other parents who aren't named. 
Not so for the Grangers. Also, our main character is Muggle-raised 
and the Dursleys don't know stuff that goes on with him at school, 
and they're not complaining about reports they don't read. (Petunia 
would read them.) Given all this it seems OOC both for Hermione and 
for the books to think that she's suddenly going to her parents and 
beseechingly asking their permission to meddle with their minds and 
send them to Australia, possibly forever, because of a long story 
she'll explain now. And OOC for any normal parent to agree to it. 
Where as, Hermione coming up with a brilliant plan and executing it 
and then telling people about it is perfectly in character for her as 
an individual and a Muggleborn. Also the fact that Rowling didn't 
think to have any character consider the Grangers pov as some of us 
readers do also imo indicates she didn't think about it. Though I've 
no doubt if it was brought up she'd "fix it" in an interview.

This kind of thing, imo, gets into the real problem of bigotry. Not 
just confining it to people who assault people "because they are" 
whatever group they're in. Few people admit to doing that.

-m