Fidelius Confundus (was: Re: Question #3)

[Lee Kaiwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 183401

CJ:
Can a Fidelius actually be broken? <snip>

Jen:
from LV's memory of the night in DH: "And along a new and darker
street he moved, and now his destination in sight at last, the
Fidelius Charm broken, though they did not know it yet..."

CJ:
OK, I'll give you the word :-). But since we already know is the was 
Secrete Keeper's betrayal that allowed LV to enter, I don't think we 
need understand "broken" in its usual sense here.

Jen:
That makes sense to me because Peter telling the location was
'broken faith' so to speak.

I think that'd be the better way to understand it -- broken in the sense 
of "rendered ineffective" in LV's case through traitorous act of the 
Secret Keeper.

Jen:
Sirius was there as well, not that I think he was the one telling everyone.
Remind me why it's a commonly held belief that no one else was around that
night?

Hmm... But Sirius already knew where the Potters were hiding -- he was 
originally to be the SK, after all. But at this point the descriptions 
we're given of the Fidelius Charm become very confusing.

"As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could 
search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never 
find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting 
room window!" (PoA chap. 10)

[A] secret ... is enchanted so that it is protected by a single 
Keeper.... [N]obody else - not even the subjects of the secret 
themselves - can divulge the secret.... The only people who ever knew 
their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but 
none of them would have been able to pass on the information." (JKR 
interview)

On the one hand, JKR's description suggests it is merely information 
that is hidden by the Fidelius, not the object itself. But that would 
imply it would still be possible to discover the information through 
ordinary means. Yet Grimmauld Place itself -- not just knowledge of its 
location -- was effectively rendered invisible by the Fidelius such that 
even someone looking directly at it was unable to see it. And the PoA 
passage says flat out even someone peering in the window at Godric's 
Hollow would have been unable to see the Potters.

Yet both passages suggest the information can only be learned when the 
SK willfully chooses to directly speak it ("As long as the SK refused to 
speak..." in PoA; "...those whom Wormtail told directly" in the 
interview). And yet, contrary to this, Hermione -- who is not even the 
SK (or wait! is she? according to Mr. Weasley in DH, after the death of 
the SK, everyone to whom he revealed the Secret became a SK in turn; but 
that differs from what JKR herself had said) -- accidentally, not 
willfully, reveals the location of Grimmauld Place when Yaxley manages 
to side-along apparate.

But it gets even worse. Shell Cottage was also protected by the Fidelius 
Charm. But when was the Charm cast? Lookt at Dobby disapparating back 
and forth between Shell Cottage and the Malfoys' dungeon. The first time 
he manages to find Shell Cottage on his own -- merely on Harry's 
instruction. So it couldn't have been protected yet. Yet, when Harry 
returns to the cottage after burying Dobby Bill tells Harry the cottage 
is protected and that he's the SK. So the Charm apparently was cast 
somewhere after Harry's first arrival at the cottage, but before his 
return after Dobby's burial. But Harry was able to find his way back 
notwithstanding. Which suggests anyone in sight (or at least with 
knowledge) of the secreted place at the time of the casting isn't 
subject to the Charm.

Now what of Sirius and Godric's Hollow? I'm presuming the Fidelius was 
still in place (the necessity of Wormtail's betrayal suggests even LV 
was unable to "break" the FC, despite the wording in DH) which would 
mean, according to the PoA passage, that anyone else in the neighborhood 
would remain unaware of the Potters' presence even after their deaths.

But how did Sirius know they were there? We can presume that he knew of 
the plan before hand -- particularly as he was to be the SK originally 
-- but what happens to people with prior knowledge once the Charm is 
cast? Shell Cottage suggests they retain their knowledge -- though 
perhaps it renders them unable to reveal it -- which would make Sirius' 
presence at GH reasonable. But what of DD and Hagrid? We could further 
assume DD knew because he was the caster, or at least that Pettigrew 
revealed it to him once the spell had been cast. But DD was not the SK 
so even he could not have revealed the place to Hagrid. And Wormtail 
certainly was sticking around to reveal it to Hagrid. Perhaps DD had 
simply carried Harry out of the house to where Hagrid *could* see him.

There's a further question raised by GH vs. GP. GP itself was protected 
and hidden by the FC such that even the house itself could not be seen. 
However, was it the Potter house, or merely their presence inside it 
that was protected at GH? Could neighbors see the house at all? The PoA 
passage suggests yes, but LV would not have been able to see the Potters 
inside.

--CJ