[HPforGrownups] Epilogue (was Re: Ron and Parseltongue)

Lynda Cordova sweenlit at gmail.com
Wed Jun 25 23:24:21 UTC 2008


No: HPFGUIDX 183427

Lynda:
I will be snipping this time!

Lynda:
>I never really did join the Snape/Lilly camp. I wasn't disappointed
> by its inclusion, just didn't see a lot of evidence for it throughout the
> books--I was, however early to realize that the horrible boy Petunia rants
> about was Snape, not James.

Montavilla47:
I figured out that Snape was the awful boy fairly early. Around HBP, anyway,

when I really put effort into figuring things out at all.

Lynda:
I figured it out earlier than that. Around GOF, think. Since I read a lot
and my entire family is into the HP books, print versions, audio versions
and especially since our selection of audios is limited to three of the HP
books and a couple by other writers, the books get a lot of play. My
selection of print books is far larger. I just packed up over a hundred for
a yard sale in a couple of weeks.

Montavilla47:
Well, I'm aware that teens can be angsty, but that doesn't mean I want to
listen to them angst. And it's not like Dumbledore's actions of a hundred
years ago have anything to do with Harry.

Lynda:
No, but I know more than a few teens who would have a similar reaction. And
I'm used to adults not liking to deal with teenage angst. I'm in a fortunate
spot. No teens in the home (ever--I don't have kids) but I work with special
needs kids, and if you want angsty. . .so I do deal with it, but I get to
leave it at work.

Montavilla47:
Well, the only time I can think of that they were *that* silly was in OotP,
when they decide to hurry off to rescue Sirius, when--as soon as
Umbridge was out of the picture--they were free to use her fireplace
to contact Arthur and Molly--or even floo directly to 12 Grimauld Place,
if they were determined to go to the Ministry.

Lynda:
I don't think what they did was silly. Yes, they could have used the
fireplaces to contact others. In DH, that is. But the were rightly worried
about the safety of their family and friends, who were being watched they
knew, by the Deatheaters.

Montavilla47:
Yes, he goes after the Horcrux, after McGonagall reminds him that all the
stuff he's watching is specifically being done so that he can--and that the
longer it takes him, the more likely it is that people are going to die.

Lynda:
Yep. All, I think because of the feeling of wanting to join the battle and
fight alongside and for his friends.

Montavilla47
Which, I suppose, gets to my fundamental problem with Harry as a
character (which is different from any problem with JKR as a writer): Harry
is the worst leader in the world.

Lynda:
Agreed. His leadership skills are minimal.

> Montavilla47:
> I was disappointed that Draco Malfoy never seemed to get beyond that
> moment on the Tower when his wand drooped a tiny bit. He spent all of
> DH with his wand metaphorically drooping just a tiny bit (until he didn't
> have a wand at all).
>
> Lynda:
> I never expected big changes from Malfoy. It would have been nice, but not
> expected.

Montavilla47:
But I'm not even talking about a big change. I'm talking about getting off
the fence. Otherwise, what's the point of setting him up with a choice to
begin with?

Lynda:
But, that decision, to get off the fence could have led to a big change. I'm
agreeing with you here. I would have liked to have seen that, even hoped for
it, but I did not really expect it.

>
>
> Lynda:
> I always believed that the Unforgivable Curses were only Unforgivable if
> they were used for the purposes of Dark Magic. Expelliarmus, to my mind,
> used by a Dark wizard, to disarm a wizard who is trying to stop him
becomes
> an Unforgivable Curse. I would not consider Crucio, Imperio or other
> traditional UC spells to be gallant, however.
Montavilla47:
Do you really believe that? That a disarming spell becomes Dark because
it's used by a Dark Wizard?

Lynda:
Here's where I need to clarify my idea. I think that the goodness or
evilness in a spell is in the intent of the spellcaster. A spell cast with
the intent to cause harm to another has the potential of being a dark spell.
A spell cast with the intent to defend oneself or another has the potential
of not being dark magic. Intention is the key. Not every spell cast by every
dark wizard will be dark magic. As you say, a wizard using expelliarmus to
rob a bank commits an evil act. A wizard, however, who uses imperio to make
someone put down a handgun and keeps that person from killing someone else
commits an act of good intent. I hope that's clearer now.

Lynda:
> Neither did I think Molly
> Weasley turned into Ripley--Ripley is not the only person to have ever
used
> that term before or since, or to have defended her offspring against
> something trying to kill them.
Montavilla47:
Nor is Charles Foster Kane the only person to say the word "Rosebud." But
when you have another character saying that word on their deathbed, it
inevitably reminds the audience of Citizen Kane.

Lynda:
In both instances I would consider that a tribute to the original rather
than otherwise, although admitedly moreso with Rosebud. I had to explain
some people's disappointment with the Molly/Ripley scene to several people
btw. They had never seen the Alien movies (by choice) and were unaware of
the similarity

> Lynda:
> Percy's falling out was with his entire family, not just his father, and
the
> twins were the ones who most actively
> opposed him, even before he left the family cloister, so I thought it was
> appropriate that it was they he reconciled with first. Especially in light
> of the fact that one of them died in the battle.
Montavilla47:
I disagree. By holding that moment back until the very end, that
subplot took on more weight than it should have. Percy really had
nothing to apologize to his brothers for--the argument wasn't with
them but with his father. They were only involved because they
insisted on taking sides.

Lynda:
They hadn't gotten along with Percy for years before he left the family. I
don't think their pretty constant references to him in a derogatory fashion
throughout the earlier books was simple sibling rivalry. Never did, really
(I did not like Percy from SS--thought he was--well a git) so I tend to
think that his return to the family fold was at just the right time and the
right place as well. There was time to apologize to his dad, but not the
twins. Not then.

> Montavilla47:
> I was disappointed that the Power of Love didn't really
> apply to Harry at all--his main advantage turned out to be a technical
> one, based on his ability to grab and pull some else's wand out of their
> hand. That Power of Love actually applied to Snape--who was dead
> (Did it matter that Snape wasn't on Voldemort's side if he was dead?)
>
> Lynda:
> Ah! Now here I disagree with you. The Power of Love that Harry had meant
> everything to the story. Without it He would never have survived and if
> Voldemort had been able to give up his anger and hatred ("try for a little
> remorse"). Of course it applied to Snape. It applied to every character in
> the story!

Montavilla47:
If you mean Harry wouldn't have survived the AK in the woods, then
you're wrong about that being due to the Power of Love. That was due
to the Power of Blood. It was Harry's blood in Voldemort's veins that
kept him alive.

If it was the original AK in Godric's Hollow, then it that was ultimately
due to Snape's love for Lily--and Lily's blood. While it was love for
Harry that caused Lily to stand in front of him, it wasn't her love that
saved him. It was the choice she had, because of Snape's love for her,
that made the difference. (As we see when the Bulgarian Mother is
killed protecting her children.)
So, yes, it was the Power of Love at work there. But it was a Power
of Love only indirectly connected to Harry himself.

Lynda: I'm going to disagree with you here. The Power of Blood was
important, but the Power of Love even moreso. It's the key to the books.


Montavilla47:
They didn't really have a turnaround. When Narcissa "helps" Harry, she's
not doing it to help him. She's simply lying so that she can get into the
castle.

Lynda:
She's doing it to make sure Draco is safe, which is another notch on the
belt for the Power of Love. Selfish love, maybe, but she's doing it out of
love.

> Montavilla47:
> So, it wasn't really a big thing that disapointed me. It was a lot of
little
> things--including the pacing of the book.
> And part of that disappointment came from JKR's own statement about
> having written the epilogue before starting the book, so that she'd
> know where she was going. I took that to mean that she did have a
> grand unified plan.
>
Lynda


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