CHAPDISC: DH 23, Malfoy Manor

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 183528

Zara wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Chapter
23, Malfoy Manor <snip>

Carol responds:
Great summary, Zara! I especially liked the way you placed all of the
old man's (Grindelwald's) remarks together rather than interspersing
them throughout the chapter. 

> Discussion Questions:
> 1) What did you think of Harry's story, that he is a Slytherin 
named Vernon Dudley whose father works at the Ministry?

Carol responds:

I'm deliberately not reading anyone else's responses before presenting
my own.

Harry's "Vernon Dudley" was certainly smarter than Hermione's use of
Penelope Clearwater as a pseudonym. (Hello, Hermione! Have you
forgotten that Penelope was one of the Muggle-borns Petrified by the
Basilisk?) I think harry's response was part inspiration, part luck.
If he had said "Dudley Dursley" instead of merely "Dudley," which the
Snatchers take as a surname, he wouldn't have had the momentary
reprieve caused by the coincidence of a Dudley actually happening to
work at the MoM. (I doubt that any Dursleys work there!) And he could
be reasonably certain that no "Vernon Dudley" would be on the
Snatchers' list. OTOH, he was taking a chance to identify himself as a
Slytherin. If any of the Snatchers actually attended Hogwarts in
recent years or had Pure-Blood connections, they might know that there
weren't any Dudleys in Slytherin. Ahat I *didn* like, though, was that
nonsense about the Slytherin common room containing skulls. Surely
Harry and Ron would have noticed those skulls when they visited the
common room in their second year and the narrator would have mentioned
them? Evidently, JKR forgot to check her fictional facts again. Maybe
she had the Slytherin common mixed up in her mind with Borgin and
Burkes, first described in the same book (CoS).

BTW, I never realized how very British the Dursleys' names are until I
heard Vernon and Dudley combined in a single name.
> 
> 2) Greyback takes the party to Malfoy Manor rather than summoning
Voldemort himself. Harry surmises this is because Greyback is not a
marked Death Eater. What do you think? 

Carol responds:

I think he's exactly right. There's no reason for Fenrir not to summon
Voldemort directly if he can do so, and Fenrir's behavior makes clear
that he's almost slipped and revealed to the Snatchers that he's not a
real DE. Werewolf or not, his prestige and authority would be
considerably reduced if his lackeys realized that he was a lackey,
too. Also, unlike Snape and Yaxley, he can't walk right through that
gate. He has to state his business.
> 
> 3) Narcissa Malfoy seems to have some authority: Greyback and his
men defer to her, and she decides to let them in. What is her status,
do you think? Which events of this chapter helped to form that opinion?

Carol responds:
She's Wizarding aristocracy, a member of an old Pure-Blood family and
married to another Pure-Blood who happens to be a Death Eater (as is
her sister). They would have no idea of the Malfoys' fall from grace.
After all, their home is Voldemort's headquarters. And Narcissa's
behavior, very much the haughty lady of the manor, would reinforce
that opinion. It's all very medieval: she's of the ruling class and
they're just serfs to her. Whether they're Half-Bloods or renegade
Muggle-borns or even Squibs, they're unqualified for some reason to
become Death Eaters. Both Narcissa and the Snatchers, including the
werewolf Greyback (tainted by his affliction regardless of his blood
status), are very much aware of their inferiority to her. Lucius's
wealth would in itself be daunting to men who earn a living by turning
in their fellow wizards for galleons.
> 
> 4) What did you think of Draco in the scene where he is asked to 
identify Harry?

Carol responds:

Poor Draco, who has found out that being a DE isn't glorious at all
and who has no stomach for killing and torture yet lacks the courage
to lie outright to his parents and his aunt, all of them in varying
degrees still loyal to Voldemort. What's interesting to me is the
contrast between the troubled Draco, struggling with pangs of
conscience but weak-willed, and his self-serving father, who only
wants to regain his lost status as Voldemort's right-hand man and who
has no concern for HRH and no qualms of conscience whatever. At least
Draco knows now that he doesn't have the makings of a Death Eater. 
>
> 5) Lucius, Bella, and Greyback all argue over who should get what
credit for the capture. What does each hope to gain?

Carol:
Greyback wants gold; Bella wants Voldemort's affection and approval;
Lucius wants his lost authority and status. (Why he doesn't snatch a
Snatcher's wand, having lost his own, I have no idea.)
> 
> 6) Did you learn anything knew about/form any new opinions of 
Bellatrix in this chapter?

Carol:

I was pretty sure that she had charge of one of the Horcruxes ("He has
trusted me with his most precious. . . .") without, of course, knowing
what it was, so that didn't surprise me. I knew that she was ruthless
and sadistic and powerful. I suppose I was surprised by the extent of
her panic. But, no. I didn't learn anything new or form any new
opinions of her that I can recall.
> 
> 7) What did you think prompted Bella's extreme fear when she 
believed the Sword of Gryffindor was stolen from her vault?

Carol responds:

That she had a Horcrux in the vault where the fake Sword of Gryffindor
was stored.
> 
> 8) What did you think was the explanation for Dumbledore's eye in
the broken mirror?

Carol:

I don't remember, to be truthful. I don't think I thought of
Aberforth, even though I knew he'd be in the story. (BTW, did he just
*happen* to be looking into the mirror those two times when Harry saw
his eye? What a lucky coincidence! And can he see Harry in it by
calling his name, assuming that Harry happens to have the mirror in
his hand? Did he just see the inside of Harry's mokeskin pouch most of
the time, just as Phineas Nigellus saw the inside of Hermione's beaded
bag? I'd give up after awhile if that were the case!) And BTW,
Aberforth's eye in the mirror gives new meaning to the expression
"keeping an eye on the situation"!
> 
> 9) "May your loyalty never waver again", Voldemort said to Peter 
after giving him the silver hand in GoF. Now we know what he meant. 
What did you think of Peter's death? Did you like or dislike the way
it ended his story? Do you see any special meaning in it?

Carol responds:

i saw it as ironic. The first faint stirring of remorse leads to
Wormtail's death, in marked contrast to Snape's adult lifetime of
remorse and expiation. I expected a bit more from the life debt (which
I realize is a fan-coined expression, but the concept is clearly
stated in PoA), But if you put together Wormtail's debt to Harry and
LV's "May your loyalty never waver!" which amounts to a curse on the
hand (the seemingly wonderful gift/reward will turn on him if he
breaks his promise to remain loyal), the punishment, gruesome though
it is, makes sense. Still, I had expected something different, maybe
Wormtail showing his Gryffindor colors at last by killing Fenrir
Greyback with that silver hand before dying repentant. I guess JKR is
more ruthless than I am!
> 
> 10) Do you think, when Peter let Harry go, he experienced a sincere
regret for his past actions? Why or why not?

Carol responds:
I doubt that he had time for anything more than an impulse, the
remembrance of that moment when Harry had spared his life, which was
enough to make him release his grip--and trigger the evil spell that
made his most prized possession the instrument of his own death. (I
keep thinking of the Trojan Horse, only the hand remained dormant,
harmless to Wormtail, until his own "disloyalty" triggered it.)
> 
> 11) Why do you think Griphook lied to Bella?

Carol responds:
Because the Snatchers had abused him and killed his friend Gornuk, and
she was more evil and powerful and they were (he'd heard her torturing
Hermione). He could see what the time spent in the Malfoys' hidden
room had done to Ollivander. His only chance was to ally himself, at
least temporarily, with his fellow prisoners. (Earlier, he had laughed
at the supposed trick played on Snape, whom he thought to be a DE
duped by the fake Sword of Gryffindor. Why not play the same game
again in reverse, this time for higher stakes?)
> 
> 12) What did you think was going on with Voldemort in this chapter?
What ideas did you have concerning the identity of the old man in the
tower?

Carol responds:

By this time, we knew that the merry-faced boy who had stolen the
Elder Wand was Grindelwald. The old man could only be that same boy
grown old, imprisoned in his own Nurmengard since 1945 when he was
defeated by Dumbledore. I found myself liking and respecting that old
man, forgiving him for his atrocities because he so bravely faced (and
insulted) the upstart Voldemort, so obviously his inferior in lore and
intelligence. Yes, I know that he did horrible things, based on
mistaken beliefs and extreme ambition, but he never made a Horcrux and
he didn't fear death. Altogether, he seems a much more complex villain
than Voldemort, much more human and much more tragic. What a waste of
a brilliant mind and charming personality that, with direction, could
have been turned to good. I understand why Dumbledore was drawn to him
and reluctant to kill him even when he presented a terrible danger to
Europe and, if DD didn't stop him, to England itself. (Personally, I
think he was a much greater Dark Wizard than the self-obsessed minor
terrorist Voldemort ever was.)
> 
> 13) Can someone explain to me why Dobby's death is the one death in
this book that originally did, and still does, move me to tears, even
though I always found him annoying? 

Carol:
Um, I don't think that anyone but you can answer that! I'll admit,
though, that I also found him annoying and I also was moved to tears
by his death, even on a first reading when I mainly wanted to hurry
through, find out what happened, and get some sleep! Maybe it's
because, for once, Dobby is risking his own life rather than Harry's
(all the difference in the world between this rescue and, say, hexing
a Bludger to knock Harry off his broom to get him sent home). Maybe
it's because he so bravely entered the home of his former masters and
defied them, only to be killed by Bellatrix's silver knife. (What does
JKR have against silver, I wonder?) Maybe it's Harry's very human
reaction, wanting to dig the grave by hand to work off his grief
through Muggle-style work. Maybe it's Luna's few fitting words of
gratitude. I just don't know. All his vaunted freedom got him was
death in the service of wizards at the hands of a witch. A sad irony,
I suppose.

Carol, looking forward to reading everyone else's responses to Zara's
thought-provoking questions