Wand Lore / Luna / Alchemy

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 181813

> > zanooda said:
>  
> > I was wondering: if DD had died from the cave poison, were 
> > we supposed to think that it was LV who killed him?
>
>  --- and later zanooda said ---
>
> Yeah, maybe it would :-). OTOH, DD didn't expect to die from the
> potion, at least that's what he told Harry.

Mike:
See now, you've called the cave's green goo both potion and poison. 
What I want to know is what makes us think this stuff was "poison"? 
Dumbledore didn't expect to die from it. Kreacher *didn't* die from 
it. 

Everything we know says the potion caused a nasty reaction of 
recalling past indiscretions and an intense thirst. It was this 
thirst thing, dipping into the lake and activating the inferi, that 
was supposed to cause death. The boat was supposed to allow only one 
wizarding passenger so nobody would be available to help the person 
that drank the potion. 

Why would it be made poisonous? Could it have included a poison if it 
had all those other qualities? I'm thinking not. I'm thinking 
Voldemort and his ego would have enjoyed the idea of first torturing 
then have the inferi finish the trespasser off, and no need for a 
backup for his brilliant trap. HE would think it undefeatable.



> > zanooda:
> > Or only the direct killing/defeat counts for the wand to 
> > recognize the new master?

> a_svirn:
> 
> Or would it be "dying on his own terms"? After all, he made 
> sure that Harry force-fed him.

Mike:
I don't give wands credit for quite the degree of sentience that 
Ollivander seemed to credit them. I think Ollie was a bit of a 
romantic (and, let's face it, a wand geek) prone to exaggerate wand 
capabilities.

My Take: 
Wands absorb the magic imprint of the wizard the uses them. They also 
recognize other wands that they encounter, especially other wands 
that act magically upon them. 

So when Harry's wand met it's brother in a duel, had a Priori 
Incatatum interaction with it and the wizard that wielded it, it 
could recognize both Voldemort and his wand. (When Harry forced the 
beads back into LV's wand, Harry's Phoenix-core wand was magically 
connected with and read Voldemort's magical imprint.) That's why 
Harry's wand recognized LV in the "Seven Potters" encounter.

Had Harry tried to fight LV with his Phoenix-core wand I don't think 
the Elder wand would have recognized Harry as it's master. The Elder 
Wand never had any encounter with Harry's PC wand. But Draco's 
Hawthorn wand had caused the Elder wand to be removed from it's 
master, it was magically acted upon. That's why Harry's Expelliarmus 
worked. When Harry's magic stream hit the stream from LV and the EW, 
the EW recognized it's master. That not only reversed the AK, the 
Expelliarmus was allowed through and obeyed by the EW.



> zanooda:
> 
> Can it still be considered "dying on his own terms" if he didn't 
> intend to die at all? More like an accident, maybe :-)?

Mike:
Because of my above basis belief, I don't think the EW would have any 
way of recognizing a new master if DD had died from either the cave 
potion or from the ring curse. I think that gives the wand too much 
credit for logical thought and knowledge. How in the hell would a 
wand know who made a potion that it's master died from? Especially if 
it's master didn't know.

Therefore, yeah, if Dumbledore had died from the potion it would be 
like dying intestate for the purposes of the EW, IMO.

As to Dumbledore's Plan:
In "King's Cross" Dumbledore said he expected Voldemort to eventually 
go after the EW. So it makes no sense that he intended Snape to 
*have* the EW. Take temporary possession, maybe. 

Harry was the one that said "you meant [Snape] to end up with the 
Elder Wand, didn't you?" DD admits that was intention, yet I'm not 
sure to what extent he expected Snape to *use* or even keep the EW. 
I've reread this chapter several times and nowhere does DD explain 
the plan to have the EW go fallow from his non-defeat. Harry sussed 
that part out later. Was he correct? If this was "all in his head", 
was he possibly making assumptions that were not exactly in "the 
Plan"? 

Why would DD intend for Snape to "end up with" the Elder Wand if he 
also had been sure that Voldemort would set out to find it? Did 
Dumbledore ever explain this to Snape? Did Snape even know that 
Dumbledore had the EW?

My take, again, is that Dumbledore intended that the EW would end up 
where it actually did end up, in his tomb. Furthermore, I think all 
Dumbledore could hope for was that Voldemort wouldn't actually figure 
out DD was the last owner and master of the EW, wouldn't find the 
wand, and wouldn't kill Snape in an attempt to become the EW master, 
before the rest of the Plan played out. He knew he was taking a 
chance, but what other choice did he have?

I've been hard on DD in the past for his ridiculous penchant for 
secrecy as well as his poor leadership style. But this is one place 
where I can't really fault him. His intention was good, and there 
really wasn't any right answer to this EW dilemma. I *don't* think he 
intended to set Snape up, even though that's what happened.

Mike