GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry and Gargoyles

Wed Mar 19 02:19:34 UTC 2008

No: HPFGUIDX 182153

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jayne" <jaynesmith62 at ...> 
wrote:
<SNIP>
> LOL. Alla me thinks you do not like Snape at all even though you 
know 
> he is on Harry's side (VBG )

Alla:

LOL, Jayne as I usually answer queries like this, congrats on 
uncovering my most deeply NOT hidden secret :-)

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
You know what this is making me wonder? Why the heck it takes
a password to get into the Headmaster's office in the first place.

The whole reason I brought up that "magic videocamera" idea in
the first place is because Snape's appearance is so providential. 
That's
why it seems likely to me that Dumbledore asked him to go detain
Harry for a few minutes.

<SNIP> 
I think you should reserve your wrath for those gargoyles. They
were a lot less helpful than Snape. :)

Alla:

Heee, you funny, you know that right? 

Let me stress again – I totally accept that hypothetical camera of 
Dumbledore as possibility, not as fact but as possibility for sure.

Basically if for the argument sake I am accepting Snape, who is doing 
anything in this fragment in good faith, Snape, who is being told by 
Dumbledore to delay Harry is certainly my FIRST choice.

The question mark which is there for me in this hypothetical scenario 
is how Dumbledore had known that Harry is coming.

You suggested extremely plausible scenario – some instrument with 
which Dumbledore had known, so absolutely why not.

Since this possibility is not cold hard canon fact, I do not believe 
I am obligated to accept it as fact, I think my interpretation is 
equally valid, that's all.

Now, when we are talking about Snape doing anything of his own 
accord, anything of good faith, I mean, that I find rather laughable. 
IMO of course.

Possibility 1, Snape decides to delay Harry till Dumbledore comes of 
his own accord because he wants to prevent Harry from barking the 
wrong tree and make sure he gets to see Dumbledore on time, the one 
which Carol seemed to suggest.

Um, again, if Snape was so determined to help Harry, again, why not 
to give him a password?

No, really why? What can be simpler and more effective than to send 
Harry straight up to Dumbledore's office if Snape really wants to 
help that is?

Possibility 2, which Zara suggested, I find even funnier, in fact I 
find it so funny that I want to address it in more details. Here we 
go.

zgirnius:
Nice discussion of this moment Alla has offered for discussion. <SNIP>

Alla:

Thanks dear, sometimes I do miss fights about Snape ;)
zgirnius:
<SNIP>
Whether or not Albus could hear the commotion, I would argue that
Snape, just behind the door Harry was yelling at, did. And when it
opened, saw Harry taking off. Naturally, he wanted to know the nature
of the emergency that had prompted this behavior, so he said...
<SNIP>

Alla:

Snape is a bat after all? He has that astute hearing? But okay, after 
all I cannot prove or disprove that, so let's assume he does.

And sure, Snape wants to know. I would remind him Dumbledore's modus 
operandi of need to know basis or putting his eggs in different 
baskets or something like that, so maybe he should have worked on 
curbing his natural curiosity, but that's neither here no there. 
Let's move on.

zgirnius:
<SNIP of the quote, go read UPTHREAD or go read a book>
Did you all gather from this statement that the emergency was of a
nature that only Albus could handle? I know I did not, and I have the
benefit of having read the rest of the chapter.

Alla:

Mmm, I know what I had gathered from that, especially after reading 
seven books. I gathered that Snape is perfectly aware of the 
importance Dumbledore places on Harry's role in the upcoming War. I 
gathered that Dumbledore really prefers to know of Harry's related 
emergencies, whether he decides to interfere or not. Therefore my 
impression is that if Harry wants to see Dumbledore, Dumbledore would 
really prefer not to have ANYBODY including Snape decide whether 
Dumbledore should see Harry or not.

zgirnius:
I am sure Snape was delighted to tell Harry this fact, but I see
nothing wrong with his decision to do so, with or without
the 'unpleasant' smile. Harry is not giving any good reason why Albus
should be interrupted, he just keeps shouting that he should.

Alla:

As soon as you refer me to the canon where Snape is appointed the 
guardian of Dumbledore FROM HARRY of all people, I will agree that 
this is Snape's business.

zgirnius:
Here, finally, for the first time in the exchange, Harry starts to
try and tell *Snape* what is wrong, so Snape could judge whether this
is a thing to take to Albus, or handle himself. The door opens, and
Albus steps out.

Alla:

Yeah, the only missing part is who told Snape to be such a judge? I 
am just amazed how you can prescribe Snape acting in good faith in 
this scenario. IMO in your scenario, where Snape is delaying Harry on 
purpose and Dumbledore did not tell him to, Snape can be nicely 
blamed for robbing Crouch of that tiny chance to stay alive.
Even  if Snape delays Harry for the purpose of waiting for 
Dumbledore, just on his own, this is just an unexpected event, but if 
he just delays without having any intention of letting Harry see 
Dumbledore, um, nice, Snape, another person's blood on your hands IMO.
Because what if Snape deems that Harry is not worthy to see 
Dumbledore at all here?

And of course there is another missing part IMO. So Snape deemed 
Harry's emergency worthy for Dumbledore to look at, how again he 
communicates to Dumbledore that he can come out?

I mean in your scenario he only comes out after Snape decides, right?

Zgirnius:
<SNIP>

Someone said the scene would have been totally different if Minerva 
> had been in the office instead. I beg to differ. We'd lose a lovely 
> scene of Harry shouting at Snape and Snape sneering at Harry, (a 
loss 
> to mourn <g>) but the substance, I do not doubt, would be the same, 
> as would be the amount of delay. I base my opinion upon the 
following 
> scene of PS/SS:
<SNIP of the quote>

Alla:

You know, yes, I would have agreed with you, except I can't for the 
simple reason that Minerva IMO is not aware how important Harry is to 
Dumbledore, Snape is and to me that makes all the difference and of 
course she tells Trio the truth, Dumbledore is not there, she is not 
playing with them.

IMO,

Alla